Original sin?

[MissBrattified]

Originally Posted by Luke

As to eternal state of babies if they are born sinners I believe that this question is answered by the following verse:

Romans 5:13 (for until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

Notice that the passage does not deny the presence of sin but it does call into question the accountability of sin if there is no law. This imo would fit the description of babies since they are born with a carnal/sinful nature but do not have the mental capabilities to understand right from wrong therefore how can there be law for one who has no understanding or even the ability to understand? This does not mean they are born they are born innocent or saved rather it magnifies the grace and mercy of God in that He by His great mercy covers holds them without the law until they reach such an age as to understand right and wrong. Until such time they are sinful by nature but not by guilt.

Right, and I guess I should have multi-quoted. I would expect that same mercy to apply to the [impossibly] unlikely possibility that someone could be completely shielded from God's commandments (have no knowledge of sin and what God expects from them) and also remain sinless. Actually, that wasn't the scenario I originally presented. My hypothetical refers to a person walking with God like Enoch and being sinless, e.g., never disobeying any of God's commandments.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by MissBrattified

Hm...You're right, and I agree, so that begs the classic question: Are babies born innocent in God's eyes, or if a baby dies, do they suffer the same eternal damnation promised to other sinners?

It would appear that God has mercy on whom He will have mercy. The Bible seems to indicate that God has mercy on infants when we consider David's words concerning the death of his child with Bathsheba:

2 Samuel 12:23
But now he is dead, wherefore should I fast? can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he shall not return to me.

Remember, God's mercy and grace are all predicated upon the cross. In the OT God justified sinful men by looking forward to the blood... in the NT God justified men predicated upon looking back at the blood.

Another intriguing part of the passage, and then I have to run to a meeting:

[NIV] 5:13 "To be sure, sin was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not charged against anyone’s account where there is no law."

Also, the niggling problem that Adam and Eve had the ability to choose sin prior to the fall. How, without a "sin nature?"

A creature with free will can choose sin. However, once a creature sins they loose their fellowship and union with God... becoming slaves to sin... and the sin nature now governs.

[MissBrattified]

Originally Posted by Aquila

It would appear that God has mercy on whom He will have mercy. The Bible seems to indicate that God has mercy on infants when we consider David's words concerning the death of his child with Bathsheba:

2 Samuel 12:23
But now he is dead, wherefore should I fast? can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he shall not return to me.

Remember, God's mercy and grace are all predicated upon the cross. In the OT God justified sinful men by looking forward to the blood... in the NT God justified men predicated upon looking back at the blood.



A creature with free will can choose sin. However, once a creature sins they loose their fellowship and union with God... becoming slaves to sin... and the sin nature now governs.

Sigh. No one is really addressing my main question, at least not to my satisfaction. I'm not discussing to argue; I'm trying to understand this doctrine. It's not your fault if I don't understand...LOL...I'm just feeling a little frustrated that there seem to be some holes here.

The doctrine of original sin works from the premise that Adam's sin brought sin and judgment upon the rest of the world, right? However, I think the idea that Adam's sin brought a "sin nature" onto the rest of the world is possibly extra-biblical. Where does scripture say that? Adam had the ability to sin, and even though he was innocent of sin and ignorant of the consequences, he still chose disobedience. Doesn't that illustrate that he had a carnal nature before the fall?

Which scriptures disprove this?

Maybe the terminology is what's throwing me off?

FTR, Catholic theology teaches that babies are born sinners--that's why they baptize infants. Protestant theology teaches that we are sinners once we commit sin, and that requires a knowledge of right and wrong.

[shazeep]

the RCC's stance is your clue here, imo; i think your Qs might best be answered by understanding what happened at the Councils of Trent. I would be curious to hear your perceptions after these have been assimilated.

[Esaias]

http://www.gospeltruth.net/menbornsinners/mbsindex.htm

[MissBrattified]

Originally Posted by shazeep

the RCC's stance is your clue here, imo; i think your Qs might best be answered by understanding what happened at the Councils of Trent. I would be curious to hear your perceptions after these have been assimilated.

Do you have any good links or reading recommendations for me?

Originally Posted by Esaias

http://www.gospeltruth.net/menbornsinners/mbsindex.htm

Thanks, Esaias.

[shazeep]

well, i got onto this via Original Blessing, Matthew Fox (a former Catholic, and Jesuit, i think), but even he did not seem to make as direct a connection as http://www.wikihow.com/Recognize-the...ristian-Models, which i started, simply because i could not have a discussion on the Law of sin and death with anyone--it kept turning into a debate of the doctrine; which led me to (fruitlessly) seek an acceptable definition of it. Which led me to an examination of what the doctrine is actually used for, its 'function.' Which i have just recently posted here (i think), something along the lines of "to make you feel more guilty" or some such.

[Luke]

As far as I can tell you seem to have 3 basic major questions.

1. How could they sin without a sinful nature or if they weren't created with a sin nature how could they sin?

To answer this question look at this passage in Ezekiel 28--

14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

Notice these scriptures are speaking about lucifer before his fall. Notice he is called perfect from the time of his creation until sin is found in him. The fact that sin is found in him does not mean that God did not it was there sense God made him perfect and put all that was suppose to be in lucifer in him. Rather it simply means he was perfect till he fell. I point this out to show that even though satan was created sunless and perfect he still had the ability to sin.

Look now at Ecc.7:29 Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions.

Notice again that man was created upright and God Himself calls man good but man was given the ability to chose but man did not have a natural pull toward sin. God made man serve and worship Him but gave man the ability and right to chose obedience or disobedience. The ability to chose is from God not a sinful nature.

[Luke]

2. Where does the bible say that the fallen nature was passed down from Adam?

In Gen 2 we are told that God created man in His own image and likeness this means more than simply we look like God rather were also created in God's moral likeness. Notice though after the fall in Gen 5:3And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, and after his image; and called his name Seth:

Here it is shown that now man is a reflection of adams moral likness in that we are flawed.

Notice also one of imo the best illustrations that show how the actions of one generation can be attributed to another generation which helps us understand the passing down of the carnal nature. Hebrews 7:9And as I may so say, Levi also, who receiveth tithes, payed tithes in Abraham.
10 For he was yet in the loins of his father, when Melchisedec met him

Notice that Paul says that Levi payed tithes to melchisedec when abrahamdid because he was yet to be born but since he came from Abraham he was seen to have played tithes when Abraham did. In the same way we all proceeded from Adam and eve therefore in Adam and Eve we all became sinners.

[Luke]

3. Is it possible for someone who has no knowledge of God or His law to live a sinless life?

First of all the Bible clearly says that the first part of those question is impossible:

Romans 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
1:19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

Psalms 19:1 The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork.
19:2 Day unto day uttereth speech, and night unto night sheweth knowledge.
19:3 There is no speech nor language, where their voice is not heard.
19:4 Their line is gone out through all the earth, and their words to the end of the world. In them hath he set a tabernacle for the sun,

Secondly the later part of the question is completely in biblical as well:


Romans 3:9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;
3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
3:12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.


Rom 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
2:15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another


Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.