End Time Army of Women Preachers Psalms 68:11

[rdp]

Originally Posted by Sister Alvear

so you are comparing Acts 4 and Judas hanging himself in the same catagory...YOU really need help...

LOL - No Sister Alvear - I am not the one who needs the "help" - you've been caught over & over & over making completely false textual assertions - I am doing just fine!



And, you can deny it until doomsday, but yes, the Bible EXPLICITLY FORBIDS women to "preach-teach" to men in the church - couldn't POSSIBLY be any clearer....You simply have an anti-biblical tradition to protect & stubbornly refuse to allow the biblical text to stand on its own merits.



No, God does not "call" women to "preach" to men contrary to His Word. You are wasting your time with me - God's Word will NEVER change - for no one !

[Sasha]

Originally Posted by Sasha

I have to wonder why RDP would send money to a woman he accuses of being in witchcraft....

I really am puzzled by this.

[Pliny]

Originally Posted by rdp

Oh brother - Here comes the ol' copy-paste jobs again .


You are mistaking a narrative in Acts 4.34-35; 5.1 for didactic instruction. To illustrate, Luke (also in Acts) records that Judas's hung himself - should we now follow suit - using your identical hermeneutic approach ?


And, parables, by their very nature are intended to convey a lesson via symbolism (which is why it's prefaced with the preposition "para" generally meaning "alongside" or "in the opinion of").


The difference is that the epistles are clear instructions to the churches with minimal symbolism - kinda' like:


11 A woman must quietly receive instruction with entire submissiveness. 12 But I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet. 13 For it was Adam who was first created, and then Eve....I am writing these things to you so that, 15 if I delay, you may know how one ought to behave in the household of God, which is the church.



John 3:3 uses the generic noun "anthropos" - meaning "human being," whereas I Timothy 2 uses the specific noun "aner" specifically meaning "male!"


Nice try Sis....Next?

Excellent points.

[Pliny]

I find it interesting that Phoebe is brought forth as "proof" for women preachers because of (Rom 16:1 KJV) I commend unto you Phebe our sister, which is a servant of the church which is at Cenchrea:

The word servant is translated from
G1249
διάκονος
diakonos


This is indeed a word that was used to create the role of the Deacon in the church. However, We must not backwards interpret passages to conform to our own predilections.

This term, as it is translated, implies only that Phebe was a servant. Nothing more and nothing less. For those who would care to look you can see this in Jn. 2:5,9 where the servants (G1249) were brought to Jesus or Matthew 22:13 or Jn. 12:26.

Phebe apparently was a woman like Tabitha (Dorcas Acts 9:40) that served (G1249) the church.

Paul would not have contradicted himself:
(1Ti 3:12 KJV) Let the deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well.

Unless one suggests that Phebe had a wife...

[Pliny]

Originally Posted by Roxanne Murphy

How sad, to be able to read and write Koine Greek, but not rightly divide the Word of truth. When anybody makes the critical error that continues to be made by rdp, the gross error of holding one or two verses of scripture on any subject as being more authoritative than the rest of scripture on a subject, that person demonstrates either an ignorance of basic hermeneutics, or a blatant disregard of hermeneutics because it interferes with a pet belief. rdp is doing what countless trinitarians do with Matthew 38:19: they fail to allow scripture to interpret scripture and follow true Biblical scholarship by studying EVERY text that pertains to the subject. Yes, mr. rdp, I did put you in the same class as those who dogmatically argue the doctrine of the trinity.

Do I have any hope that rdp will be able to lose his blinders and honestly see all that scripture says about the subject of women in ministry? No. I rather suspect (because I used to be a part of his type of sect) that he comes out here to be able to say, "Bless God, all these poor deceived souls out there on that Internet forum, they've been sent a strong delusion! You better thank God He loves you enough to send you a preacher who will preach it to you straight so you don't end up lost and on your way to a devil's hell like those poor reprobates! If they don't acknowledge the truth I am declaring to them, then they can't be saved! Bless God!"

It helps to get the citation right...

Lots of vitriol here. I suppose you are a woman preacher?
FTR I don't care. I don't believe it's right, according to scripture, but there is to much work to do for me to get worked up about it. I will however stand for what I believe.

[Pliny]

It has been hinted at and I have heard it numerous times from many places, that a person's calling will make room for itself. Typically the passage referred to is:
(Pro 18:16 KJV) A man's gift maketh room for him, and bringeth him before great men.

This passage is actually dealing with bribery...

[Sasha]

Note the verses where 1249 is used for 'servant:
Romans 13:4; Romans 15:8; Romans 16:1 1 Corinthians 3:5 2 Corinthians 3:6; 2 Corinthians 6:4; 2 Corinthians 11:15; 2 Corinthians 11:23 Ephesians 3:7; Ephesians 6:21 Colossians 1:7; Colossians 1:23; Colossians 1:25; Colossians 4:7 1 Timothy 3:8; 1 Timothy 3:12; 1 Timothy 4:6

Except for Phoebe, these other verses refer to men, including Paul several times.

Servant doesn't mean tablewaiter or maid, dishwasher or launderer. This word was used to describe Phoebe's relationship to a certain church, and that same word is used to describe many men, including Paul, and their relationships to their churches.

[Dordrecht]

…..the Bible EXPLICITLY FORBIDS women to "preach-teach" to men in the church

What about outside the church, lol?
Maybe in the parking lot?

[Pliny]

Originally Posted by Sasha

Note the verses where 1249 is used for 'servant:
Romans 13:4; Romans 15:8; Romans 16:1 1 Corinthians 3:5 2 Corinthians 3:6; 2 Corinthians 6:4; 2 Corinthians 11:15; 2 Corinthians 11:23 Ephesians 3:7; Ephesians 6:21 Colossians 1:7; Colossians 1:23; Colossians 1:25; Colossians 4:7 1 Timothy 3:8; 1 Timothy 3:12; 1 Timothy 4:6

Except for Phoebe, these other verses refer to men, including Paul several times.

Servant doesn't mean tablewaiter or maid, dishwasher or launderer. This word was used to describe Phoebe's relationship to a certain church, and that same word is used to describe many men, including Paul, and their relationships to their churches.

So you are saying that διάκονος does NOT mean "servant"?!?!

Seriously? Words mean things and you cannot change those meanings just because you want to. The word does in fact mean "service" which includes waiting on tables. The context defines whether it speaks of a church office or some form of help - like being a table-waiter or maid or dishwasher or... In the absence of clear contextual witness then one must assume it means what it generally means – a servant. This is especially true when other statements by the same writer clearly contradict the hoped for meaning such as Paul in 1 Timothy 3 where he clearly states that the wives of the διάκονος must be… Clearly revealing that Paul only recognized men as διάκονος.

διάκονος absolutely means "servant".
Here, this is from Strong's (G1249) which most people have:
an attendant, that is, (generally) a waiter (at table or in other menial duties); specifically a Christian teacher and pastor (technically a deacon or deaconess): - deacon, minister, servant.


I could post a plethora of other sources but it would most likely fall on deaf ears.

To the point about relationships with the church, As pointed out, when referring to an official position within the church, it is speaking of men.

Rom 13:4 - the ruler is a διάκονος (servant) and terror to evil - speaking of governments in general not any one individual. This is telling us about the “service” of governments in containing and discouraging evil.

Romans 15:8 Jesus was a διάκονος (servant) of the circumcision.
Again revealing the essence of the word - servant-hood not a church officer, especially not a junior officer as Christ is the head…

1 Cor. 3:5 Paul and Apollos are called διάκονος (servants) again implying service not as a junior officer in the church but servants to all. Again “service” in general not a position.


2 Corinthians 3:6
Paul is referring to himself and calling himself a servant to the church. He is not suggesting he is in a lesser role of a junior.

2 Corinthians 6:4
The context again is speaking of διάκονος (service) in general and not speaking of a specific church office. Every Christian is a διάκονος (servant) to God. Wow! Makes me wonder if you believe everyone is a “deacon” in your church…

2 Corinthians 11:15
Once again we see the term used in the normal general sense of “servant-hood”.

2 Corinthians 11:23
Once again the word is used in the sense of servant-hood not as a junior office holder of the church.


I skipped Ephesians because it is more of the same. Another scripture that reveals that διάκονος means to be a servant.


Ephesians 6:21
Finally a verse that could refer to an office holder of “deacon”. But there is nothing in the context of this verse to suggest that he was in fact a deacon and not just someone who was a faithful διάκονος (servant). He may or may not have been. There is not enough information from this verse to say one way or the other.


Colossians 1:7
The same goes for this verse. The individual may have been a servant as we found in 2 Cor. 6:4 every Christian is a διάκονος to God.

Colossians 1:23
Back to the same general statements of Paul being a διάκονος (servant) to all and not a junior officer in the church.

Colossians 1:25
Same as Col. 1:23.


Colossians 4:7
Once again there is not enough information to state matter of factually that Tychicus was a deacon, a junior office holder in the church.

1 Timothy 3:8
This one in context with 1 Timothy 3:12 precludes women from being διάκονος within the church as an junior officer of the church. Therefore, Phebe could not be, based upon Paul’s qualifications a διάκονος within the organizational church.

1 Timothy 4:6
Paul is simply telling Timothy that if he did all those things he told him, then Timothy would be a good διάκονος (servant) to God. Once again speaking generally of service an not of an office.


Then there are contexts such as Jn. 2:5 where the διάκονος (servants) explicitly waited on tables, were maids, dish washers etc.

So much more could be said…

The term διάκονος means servant period. The church used the term for junior officers within the church because Jesus said to be διάκονος (servants) to all. Thus, they used the term for a position of authority within the church and reminding those in the position that they are servants foremost. It is silly to assume that this term can only mean a position of authority within the church. As for Phebe, Paul explicitly forbid her from holding that position by his, Holy Ghost inspired, qualifications.

[Sasha]

Originally Posted by Pliny

So you are saying that διάκονος does NOT mean "servant"?!?!

Seriously? Words mean things and you cannot change those meanings just because you want to. The word does in fact mean "service" which includes waiting on tables. The context defines whether it speaks of a church office or some form of help - like being a table-waiter or maid or dishwasher or... In the absence of clear contextual witness then one must assume it means what it generally means – a servant. This is especially true when other statements by the same writer clearly contradict the hoped for meaning such as Paul in 1 Timothy 3 where he clearly states that the wives of the διάκονος must be… Clearly revealing that Paul only recognized men as διάκονος.

διάκονος absolutely means "servant".
Here, this is from Strong's (G1249) which most people have:
an attendant, that is, (generally) a waiter (at table or in other menial duties); specifically a Christian teacher and pastor (technically a deacon or deaconess): - deacon, minister, servant.


I could post a plethora of other sources but it would most likely fall on deaf ears.

To the point about relationships with the church, As pointed out, when referring to an official position within the church, it is speaking of men.

Rom 13:4 - the ruler is a διάκονος (servant) and terror to evil - speaking of governments in general not any one individual. This is telling us about the “service” of governments in containing and discouraging evil.

Romans 15:8 Jesus was a διάκονος (servant) of the circumcision.
Again revealing the essence of the word - servant-hood not a church officer, especially not a junior officer as Christ is the head…

1 Cor. 3:5 Paul and Apollos are called διάκονος (servants) again implying service not as a junior officer in the church but servants to all. Again “service” in general not a position.


2 Corinthians 3:6
Paul is referring to himself and calling himself a servant to the church. He is not suggesting he is in a lesser role of a junior.

2 Corinthians 6:4
The context again is speaking of διάκονος (service) in general and not speaking of a specific church office. Every Christian is a διάκονος (servant) to God. Wow! Makes me wonder if you believe everyone is a “deacon” in your church…

2 Corinthians 11:15
Once again we see the term used in the normal general sense of “servant-hood”.

2 Corinthians 11:23
Once again the word is used in the sense of servant-hood not as a junior office holder of the church.


I skipped Ephesians because it is more of the same. Another scripture that reveals that διάκονος means to be a servant.


Ephesians 6:21
Finally a verse that could refer to an office holder of “deacon”. But there is nothing in the context of this verse to suggest that he was in fact a deacon and not just someone who was a faithful διάκονος (servant). He may or may not have been. There is not enough information from this verse to say one way or the other.


Colossians 1:7
The same goes for this verse. The individual may have been a servant as we found in 2 Cor. 6:4 every Christian is a διάκονος to God.

Colossians 1:23
Back to the same general statements of Paul being a διάκονος (servant) to all and not a junior officer in the church.

Colossians 1:25
Same as Col. 1:23.


Colossians 4:7
Once again there is not enough information to state matter of factually that Tychicus was a deacon, a junior office holder in the church.

1 Timothy 3:8
This one in context with 1 Timothy 3:12 precludes women from being διάκονος within the church as an junior officer of the church. Therefore, Phebe could not be, based upon Paul’s qualifications a διάκονος within the organizational church.

1 Timothy 4:6
Paul is simply telling Timothy that if he did all those things he told him, then Timothy would be a good διάκονος (servant) to God. Once again speaking generally of service an not of an office.


Then there are contexts such as Jn. 2:5 where the διάκονος (servants) explicitly waited on tables, were maids, dish washers etc.

So much more could be said…

The term διάκονος means servant period. The church used the term for junior officers within the church because Jesus said to be διάκονος (servants) to all. Thus, they used the term for a position of authority within the church and reminding those in the position that they are servants foremost. It is silly to assume that this term can only mean a position of authority within the church. As for Phebe, Paul explicitly forbid her from holding that position by his, Holy Ghost inspired, qualifications.

You can assume to know what Paul meant by the word for servant, but you weren't there. Paul chose that word for a reason. If he wanted to be more specific, there were many other words for him to use. Assuming what he meant doesn't make your case. I was simply showing he used the same word for himself that he used for Phoebe. If she was merely a servant, it would make no sense for Paul to instruct others to help her in whatever she asked of them.

As for his Holy Ghost inspirations and commands, have to resorted to following his command to greet your fellow man with a holy kiss? Have you ever?

Paul also instructed that men study to be quiet. Instead what I see is men telling women they should be quiet..men telling women who are not their wives! That's not biblical!