Is This True?

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by tater

Is it possible(I think it is) that the Baptism in the Holy Spirit, being filled with the Spirit, having the Spirit, receiving the Spirit, the Spirit coming upon someone, the Spirit coming, and many more actions of the Holy Spirit are not all the same thing? Surely there is a reason there are different descriptions for each occurrence. We have a command to "be filled with the Spirit" (literally be being filled with the Spirit, a continuous process). I just want to be filled today. That's more important than what happened 35 years ago.

I Cor 12:4 - "diversities of gifts, same spirit"
I Cor 12:6 - "diversities of operations, same God that worketh all in all"
I Cor 12:8 - "word of wisdom and knowledge given by the same spirit"
I Cor 12:9 - "faith and healing given by the same spirit"

[MissBrattified]

Originally Posted by Ferd

LOL thats the oldest question in pentecost

if you ask CC1 its true.
if you ask me its not.

CC1 is still a good guy

This.

My personal belief is that a person must repent of their sins, have their sins washed away in baptism and must be filled with the Holy Ghost in order to go to Heaven. Yep, I'm an Apostolic traditionalist on this issue.

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

How does Acts 19:1-2 show the Holy Ghost as being "subsequent" to salvation? Obviously, he didn't deem them to be saved without it.

Agreed, nothing in that passage implies that the "certain disciples" were saved with--or without--the re-baptism and infilling of the Holy Ghost. Obviously it needed to be done; Paul seemed to think it was important enough to introduce them to baptism in Jesus' name and being filled with the Holy Ghost. Now, why would Paul think that people who were already BELIEVERS and DISCIPLES needed to be re-baptized and filled with the Holy Ghost? Wasn't repentance enough?

The most important conclusion that can be drawn from Acts 19:1-2 regarding our doctrine is that repentance and believing are not synonymous with being filled with the Holy Ghost. 1. They hadn't even heard that there was a Holy Ghost--even though they had repented and were believers, and 2. In spite of the fact that they had repented and believed, Paul prayed for them and the Holy Ghost they hadn't yet heard of or experienced "came on them" and they spoke in tongues and prophesied. It was definitely a separate experience from repentance and believing.

I have always appreciated the respect that Paul showed those disciples, though. It's an important attitude that the overly-exclusive Apostolic church world should emulate.

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by MissBrattified

This.

My personal belief is that a person must repent of their sins, have their sins washed away in baptism and must be filled with the Holy Ghost in order to go to Heaven. Yep, I'm an Apostolic traditionalist on this issue.



Agreed, nothing in that passage implies that the "certain disciples" were saved with--or without--the re-baptism and infilling of the Holy Ghost. Obviously it needed to be done; Paul seemed to think it was important enough to introduce them to baptism in Jesus' name and being filled with the Holy Ghost. Now, why would Paul think that people who were already BELIEVERS and DISCIPLES needed to be re-baptized and filled with the Holy Ghost? Wasn't repentance enough?

The most important conclusion that can be drawn from Acts 19:1-2 regarding our doctrine is that repentance and believing are not synonymous with being filled with the Holy Ghost. 1. They hadn't even heard that there was a Holy Ghost--even though they had repented and were believers, and 2. In spite of the fact that they had repented and believed, Paul prayed for them and the Holy Ghost they hadn't yet heard of or experienced "came on them" and they spoke in tongues and prophesied. It was definitely a separate experience from repentance and believing.

I have always appreciated the respect that Paul showed those disciples, though. It's an important attitude that the overly-exclusive Apostolic church world should emulate.

Good post, but don't make the mistake that Paul would have "included" anyone that didn't receive the truth of the Gospel. Luke 10:11 The people Paul prayed for readily received what he had to say.

[obriencp]

Originally Posted by MissBrattified

The most important conclusion that can be drawn from Acts 19:1-2 regarding our doctrine is that repentance and believing are not synonymous with being filled with the Holy Ghost. 1. They hadn't even heard that there was a Holy Ghost--even though they had repented and were believers, and 2. In spite of the fact that they had repented and believed, Paul prayed for them and the Holy Ghost they hadn't yet heard of or experienced "came on them" and they spoke in tongues and prophesied. It was definitely a separate experience from repentance and believing.

This is why some believe that there is a separation/difference between salvation at repentance and believing and a later empowering of the the Holy Ghost, IE tongues as an external manifistation.

One could also read this as they hadn't heard of the empowerment of being filled with the Holy Ghost. Paul never stated they weren't saved. He did however pray for them that they too could receive a greater blessing that had been experienced by others.

Most OPs cannot separate tongues from salvation, or water from salvation. If you separate tongues from salvation, it's not so hard to see how one could be saved long before they ever speak in tongues. Acts traces the spread of the church and outpouring of the Holy Ghost. The experience of tongues was to prove to the apostles that God was not a respector of persons and that all could be saved under this new covenant.

On a separate note... we love to throw out verses that connect baptism to salvation. How many more verses connect believing/faith to salvation or having life? Now i expect people to counter this with James ch 2 to bolster the claim that faith and repentance alone cannot bring salvation.

[Robert Sanders]

Originally Posted by MissBrattified

This.

My personal belief is that a person must repent of their sins, have their sins washed away in baptism and must be filled with the Holy Ghost in order to go to Heaven. Yep, I'm an Apostolic traditionalist on this issue.

Do you need any help, with repenting from your sins?