Acts 2:38 plus, plus, plus!!! - Page 3

MissBrattified · #21 03-11-2014, 10:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KeptByTheWord

Even though people believe that you are going to hell if you don't believe in Acts 2:38, most won't openly condemn you, but.... it is still an unspoken understanding, that unless you are apostolic/AMF/UPCI through to the bone, complete with all the standards, there is a special place in hell reserved with your name on it... although most won't go so far to say that, but they do think it, and would say so, if questioned deeper about it.

On principle, isn't this the case for every Christian denomination, though? Most believe that you must be saved or you will be lost, and they have various ideas about how one is saved. That isn't unique to Apostolics. Pretty much, if you believe you know what one must do to be "saved", then it follows that you also believe that if they do not do whatever it requires, they will be lost.

justlookin · #22 03-11-2014, 10:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MissBrattified

On principle, isn't this the case for every Christian denomination, though? Most believe that you must be saved or you will be lost, and they have various ideas about how one is saved. That isn't unique to Apostolics. Pretty much, if you believe you know what one must do to be "saved", then it follows that you also believe that if they do not do whatever it requires, they will be lost.

This is true. Almost all Christian denominations have a minimum requirement to miss hell. Except for the Universalists of course.

kclee4jc · #23 03-12-2014, 06:29 AM

I am just as conservative as I have ever been on salvific and holiness issues.(just for the benefit of anyone who would question that-no holywood, long-sleeves, no jewelry, short-hair for me uncut for ladies....etc.)
I believe in a conservative holiness standard and I believe that when it is done out of true consecration of the heart, that it is pleasing to God. I believe that Acts 2:38 is the New Birth experience and is absolutely essential to be a part of the New Testament Church.
That being said, it is increasingly difficult for me to condemn ANYONE to Hell. I have come to the conclusion it is simply not my place, nor anyone else's to do so. It is the Church's job to preach the Gospel (which I believe includes holy living) as a way of escape and leave the final determination up to God.

MissBrattified · #24 03-12-2014, 06:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by justlookin

This is true. Almost all Christian denominations have a minimum requirement to miss hell. Except for the Universalists of course.

Yes, except for those pesky Universalists...who are obviously going to hell.

Quote:

Originally Posted by kclee4jc

I am just as conservative as I have ever been on salvific and holiness issues.(just for the benefit of anyone who would question that-no holywood, long-sleeves, no jewelry, short-hair for me uncut for ladies....etc.)
I believe in a conservative holiness standard and I believe that when it is done out of true consecration of the heart, that it is pleasing to God. I believe that Acts 2:38 is the New Birth experience and is absolutely essential to be a part of the New Testament Church.
That being said, it is increasingly difficult for me to condemn ANYONE to Hell. I have come to the conclusion it is simply not my place, nor anyone else's to do so. It is the Church's job to preach the Gospel (which I believe includes holy living) as a way of escape and leave the final determination up to God.

But what do you think about salvation? Obviously you stating what you think about salvation doesn't condemn or save anyone in actuality--only God can do that. So why be afraid to state your feelings on the matter? We all believe that something will send you to hell, right?

I've been thinking about this quite a bit lately, I'm a bit tired of other Christians trying to *shush* all the other Christians who want to state precisely what they believe or don't believe. It is quite possible that I've been guilty of that, too, with a misguided sense of gentility and compassion. Yes, I believe we should state the truth in love and be kind, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't state our beliefs for everyone to hear. In fact, if we truly believe, then we have an obligation to the Gospel to state it for everyone to hear.

Growing up in the church, I've heard many conversations that were peppered with, "So you think I'm going to hell?" or "So you think they're going to hell?" I still read and hear comments about how that stating definitive truths condemns that Christian or this one, but here's the deal:

1. We can't go back and save or condemn anyone who is already dead; they are in God's hands. No amount of stating any belief or renouncing any other belief actually condemns or saves millions of past Christians. Again, only God is their actual judge. Ergo, there is no harm in stating your beliefs, even if they are in conflict with centuries of traditional Christianity.

2. Stating what we believe right now is not only harmless, but obligatory. If you truly believe that you know what scripture says and means, then you have an obligation to share it with people who could potentially be lost from a lack of knowledge. While people who are already dead are in God's hands, people who are living today are, to some extent, in our hands. God has given us a commission, and I believe He will hold us accountable if we don't do our best to carry it out. That commission is teaching and baptizing. We aren't just instructed to share the Gospel message, either. Jesus said to teach people to observe all His commandments.

I guess I'm trying to say that I'm tired of the stigma surrounding stating absolutes and strong beliefs. As long as you speak the truth in love, you are harming no one by stating your beliefs, and, more importantly, there may be many people you will help. FTR, I didn't take your post to mean that you don't believe we should be witnesses; it segued into something I've been thinking about already. I believe Satan has shut the mouth of the church with the fear that we will condemn someone to hell. No worries, we don't have that power--so speaking about what we believe is perfectly acceptable.

Amanah · #25 03-12-2014, 06:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kclee4jc

That being said, it is increasingly difficult for me to condemn ANYONE to Hell. I have come to the conclusion it is simply not my place, nor anyone else's to do so. It is the Church's job to preach the Gospel (which I believe includes holy living) as a way of escape and leave the final determination up to God.

I agree. And I might add: we do not know where people are at with God and how he is dealing with them. God forbid that we should cause an offense that would frustrate the wooing and conviction of the Holy Spirit.

Carl · #26 03-12-2014, 10:36 AM

My long-time pastor never used the "its Acts 2:38 or hell approach". He always used a very positive way of preaching. He would say this message will put you in the bride of Christ, so why settle for something less?

justlookin · #27 03-12-2014, 11:03 AM

On the heaven or hell issue, isn't it one or the other? And if it's one or the other and dependent upon obedience to the gospel, shouldn't the required plan of salvation be preached that would assure a person heaven instead of hell? If it's the three stepper version of Acts 2:38 which is the required minimum to miss hell and attain heaven, shouldn't that be explicit in one's teaching, preaching? Shouldn't the pulpit be very very plain about the consequences?

Heaven or hell is a very serious and basic issue of Christianity. I understand not judging others, but not being forthright and plain is one of the major problems in the pulpits of America today, IMO. Sin not being preached, hell not being preached, judgement not being preached and this has watered down holiness (and I'm not speaking of close line standards) to a point where holiness is a lost concept, almost a dirty word to some.

If sin will cause one to miss heaven and go to hell that's serious and should be a frequent part of any gospel message, IMO.

Carl · #28 03-12-2014, 11:14 AM

Right. But shouldn't the message be a positive one? Its what we get, not what we don't get that should be the motivation.

Pressing-On · #29 03-12-2014, 11:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MissBrattified

Yes, except for those pesky Universalists...who are obviously going to hell.

But what do you think about salvation? Obviously you stating what you think about salvation doesn't condemn or save anyone in actuality--only God can do that. So why be afraid to state your feelings on the matter? We all believe that something will send you to hell, right?

I've been thinking about this quite a bit lately, I'm a bit tired of other Christians trying to *shush* all the other Christians who want to state precisely what they believe or don't believe. It is quite possible that I've been guilty of that, too, with a misguided sense of gentility and compassion. Yes, I believe we should state the truth in love and be kind, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't state our beliefs for everyone to hear. In fact, if we truly believe, then we have an obligation to the Gospel to state it for everyone to hear.

Growing up in the church, I've heard many conversations that were peppered with, "So you think I'm going to hell?" or "So you think they're going to hell?" I still read and hear comments about how that stating definitive truths condemns that Christian or this one, but here's the deal:

1. We can't go back and save or condemn anyone who is already dead; they are in God's hands. No amount of stating any belief or renouncing any other belief actually condemns or saves millions of past Christians. Again, only God is their actual judge. Ergo, there is no harm in stating your beliefs, even if they are in conflict with centuries of traditional Christianity.

2. Stating what we believe right now is not only harmless, but obligatory. If you truly believe that you know what scripture says and means, then you have an obligation to share it with people who could potentially be lost from a lack of knowledge. While people who are already dead are in God's hands, people who are living today are, to some extent, in our hands. God has given us a commission, and I believe He will hold us accountable if we don't do our best to carry it out. That commission is teaching and baptizing. We aren't just instructed to share the Gospel message, either. Jesus said to teach people to observe all His commandments.

I guess I'm trying to say that I'm tired of the stigma surrounding stating absolutes and strong beliefs. As long as you speak the truth in love, you are harming no one by stating your beliefs, and, more importantly, there may be many people you will help. FTR, I didn't take your post to mean that you don't believe we should be witnesses; it segued into something I've been thinking about already. I believe Satan has shut the mouth of the church with the fear that we will condemn someone to hell. No worries, we don't have that power--so speaking about what we believe is perfectly acceptable.

Very good post, Bratti. I know what I believe and am not ashamed to speak out about it, if someone asks me.

One thing I do know - I would be prepared to be imprisoned over Acts 2:38 and my belief that Jesus is God manifest in the flesh, but I sure wouldn't go to jail over the standards issue.

justlookin · #30 03-12-2014, 11:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carl

Right. But shouldn't the message be a positive one? Its what we get, not what we don't get that should be the motivation.

Yes, by all means the message should be a positive one.

I grew up hearing a fear message, the stories about the person who walked out of the church during an altar call and got killed in a car wreck. Fear was the motivating factor which caused folks to go to the altar and it was effective to a point. Actually, thinking about that time, the power of God was more prevalent also.

I'm not suggesting that the fear message should be the motivational message for those needing salvation, but I am saying that the fear message also has it's place in the salvation message. One can be, and should be, positive in presenting heaven instead of hell, but the negative of the destination of the individual who rejects Christ should be preached also. There is a reality of heaven and there is a reality of hell. Both should be preached and the responsibility is then placed on the individual. Accept or reject, the choice is up to them.

It's a serious thing and needs serious preaching.