My Talk With God:

[crakjak]

Originally Posted by votivesoul

The gifts are often inactive or abused, sadly. Some aren't even acknowledged as present and existing in our day and age (e.g. Apostle and Prophet).

However, I have seen one place where the gifts are "working out": in the local assembly. A core, hearts knitted together in love group of believers in Christ can come to a place of mutual trust, respect, and understanding, such that the Lord can develop the ascension gifts in a safe, healthy environment, such that the local members are able to identify how Christ uses them.

If we could just take this, and steadily grow it outward to the next and the next local assembly (while ditching the traditions of man in the process) we might actually see some fruit.

It is a lofty hope, but worth it still for the hoping.

I completely agree, on all counts.

[crakjak]

Aquila,
I accept your post in the spirit in which it is presented. Do I believe God was speaking to you? Yes. Does this mean you were able to interpret perfectly what He was communicating with you. NO. But what you present is very important, and is a very important word that believers need to hear, and to change how we process our view of God and of His purposes in the earth.
As you presented, believer's view of God, who is Love, is so distorted that spiritual growth is stunted, and the church cannot be "perfected" because we do not KNOW Him as He really is!!
If one believes God is hateful and will torture His creation endlessly unless they "get it just right" then that one is justified in his hatefulness. Just as Calvin and some of the early "church fathers" felt justified in burning some at the stake that they disagreed with. God is going to burn them anyway...

God is Love and man is the highest focus of His love, the whole of creation and the cosmos is for humanity!! God loves sinners, Jesus died for sinners, and in the end He will not leave any in their sin.

I know I sound like a broken record, but how on earth can one justify the hateful, and cruelty of religion's view of God, and believe that God who has all powerful, is defeated by man's "freewill" or his sin?

No matter how sinful one is, Jesus paid the price for every sin, and if the debt is paid, why is it still on the books???? Oh, the glorious gospel is truly Good News!!!

[KeptByTheWord]

Votivesoul... in all due respect, I believe Aquila was speaking of man-made lists, not the ones God has provided to us in his Word. I believe Aquila was speaking of the add-ons such as what the Pharisees had been doing when Jesus railed against them. In Matt. 5:20, Jesus said unless your righteousness EXCEEDS the righteousness of the Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

I've heard Aquila say many times that he respects the ten commandments, and believes in holiness, and separation unto the Lord. But it seems the "lists" he was talking about were the lists that man makes, and adds to... and not the ones we find in God's word.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by KeptByTheWord

Votivesoul... in all due respect, I believe Aquila was speaking of man-made lists, not the ones God has provided to us in his Word. I believe Aquila was speaking of the add-ons such as what the Pharisees had been doing when Jesus railed against them. In Matt. 5:20, Jesus said unless your righteousness EXCEEDS the righteousness of the Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

I've heard Aquila say many times that he respects the ten commandments, and believes in holiness, and separation unto the Lord. But it seems the "lists" he was talking about were the lists that man makes, and adds to... and not the ones we find in God's word.

Amen. I believe that God's focus when we were speaking were the man-made laws. However, God did mention something interesting:

Some say you must keep the Ten Commandments that I delivered to Moses to give to my people. Some of you expand upon these and add feast days, Sabbaths, dietary regulations, linguistic nuances of eccentricity wherein you think you are shown to be wise, yet you are looking foolish in your conceits. You want to be so much like my people… but not like me. You fail to realize… I’m the eternal, the constant, the source; the Alpha, the Omega, the beginning, the ending, the all in all, the great I AM that I AM… I’m not Catholic, Protestant, or Evangelical… neither am I Jewish. I’m GOD. Still some of you have codified my teachings into a strict body of church law in which you seek to please me by changing your “behavior”… but not your “being”. Teachings of mine were for spiritual development, they were not intended to be turned into dry do’s and don’ts to maintain a religious status quo. Then some of you codified the methods with which I addressed issues in Israel or the first generation of churches... making them “commandments” instead of seeing the spirit behind the reasoning. A reasoning that endures in any context, be it time or culture.

We often cherry pick a body of lists out of God's Word. For example, we pick a commandment here, a commandment there, and tack on the Ten Commandments at the end to make them sound official. The Law is a whole. It can't be divided. To obey any laws out of the law at the expense of ignoring others is (as God said) a form of hypocrisy. We either obey the entire law as a whole... or we must admit that we are not bound by it. And that's what I've come to realize. I'm not bound by it. However, I'm bound by a different eternal law... a Law of Love.

1.) Love God with all your being.
2.) Demonstrate your love for God by loving others as yourself.

Jesus and Paul summed it up as follows:

Matthew 22:37-40
King James Version (KJV)
37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38 This is the first and great commandment.
39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

Romans 13:9
For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Galatians 5:14
For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

In simply loving (both Godward and others-ward) we obey a higher law that fulfills the just requirements of the entire Law as delivered to Israel... because we are living by it's spiritual essence, not it's letter.

For example, keeping the Sabbath. We keep the Sabbath every day. How? We rest from the works of the law and the works of the flesh. We live in the Spirit daily. Now, every single day is holy unto the LORD. Merely keeping the Fourth Commandment and making one day out of seven isn't enough. In fact, it would be lowering the bar from what the Law of Love would demand.

Even this is a "list" of sorts:

1.) Love God.
2.) Love others.

However, it is the final list provided by God. And... it's universal in scope and application. It is timeless, or eternal, in that it isn't bound by culture, language, or time. It can be applied in any setting imaginable.

[votivesoul]

Originally Posted by KeptByTheWord

Votivesoul... in all due respect, I believe Aquila was speaking of man-made lists, not the ones God has provided to us in his Word. I believe Aquila was speaking of the add-ons such as what the Pharisees had been doing when Jesus railed against them. In Matt. 5:20, Jesus said unless your righteousness EXCEEDS the righteousness of the Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

I've heard Aquila say many times that he respects the ten commandments, and believes in holiness, and separation unto the Lord. But it seems the "lists" he was talking about were the lists that man makes, and adds to... and not the ones we find in God's word.

It may be so, but then again, the argument against man-made lists doesn't always hold water, since many of these "lists" are found in Scripture. It's usually the application of the list, or how binding the items are that are found in the list, that is at issue.

There are some real nutters out there, to be sure. But there are also some very sincere, God-fearing people who strive and contend for the faith as they understand it. But this automatically leads to division against those who understand the faith differently. We are but flesh, right?

Even Jesus said He came not to bring peace, but a sword. Members of one's own family can become enemies over the doctrine of Christ.

Today, while reading up on an unrelated topic, I came upon a verse that seems to weigh in on this thread. I share it now for consideration:

1 Timothy 6:3-5,

3. If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness;
4. He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings,
5. Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself.

We are even supposed to withdraw ourselves from brethren, people of the faith, if they do not consent to wholesome words, and etc.

To me, this goes back to the heart of Aquila's opening post. How can we obey verses like this without drawing a line in the sand? How can we know from whom we must withdraw, if we don't at first create an awareness and understanding of what Paul meant here in 1 Timothy 6?

This is God-ordained dis-unity. The Lord, while wanting for us all to become one with Him, nonetheless doesn't always want us to become one with each other if such a oneness compromises us.

[KeptByTheWord]

Originally Posted by votivesoul

It may be so, but then again, the argument against man-made lists doesn't always hold water, since many of these "lists" are found in Scripture. It's usually the application of the list, or how binding the items are that are found in the list, that is at issue.

There are some real nutters out there, to be sure. But there are also some very sincere, God-fearing people who strive and contend for the faith as they understand it. But this automatically leads to division against those who understand the faith differently. We are but flesh, right?

Even Jesus said He came not to bring peace, but a sword. Members of one's own family can become enemies over the doctrine of Christ.

Today, while reading up on an unrelated topic, I came upon a verse that seems to weigh in on this thread. I share it now for consideration:

1 Timothy 6:3-5,



We are even supposed to withdraw ourselves from brethren, people of the faith, if they do not consent to wholesome words, and etc.

To me, this goes back to the heart of Aquila's opening post. How can we obey verses like this without drawing a line in the sand? How can we know from whom we must withdraw, if we don't at first create an awareness and understanding of what Paul meant here in 1 Timothy 6?

This is God-ordained dis-unity. The Lord, while wanting for us all to become one with Him, nonetheless doesn't always want us to become one with each other if such a oneness compromises us.

OF COURSE there are things that the Lord requires of us. Yet, you know as well as I do, that a man receives a conviction on a certain thing from the Lord. Instead of accepting that it is just a conviction for himself, this man thinks that now everyone needs to obey this particular conviction he received from the Lord. Hence... a man-made rule. Even though the conviction was for him personally, he begins a ministry making it everyone's conviction. This is the kind of thing that you can find in almost every OP/Apostolic church. You can't go to two churches, and find two groups of people who believe exactly the same thing on every single account. This is the issue I am addressing, and perhaps what Aquila was referencing.

Of course, there are lines in the sand that must be drawn. The bottom line is that we must believe that Jesus lived, died, was buried, and rose again for our sins. That He alone is our mediator, and it is to Him that we must answer to. He is the way, the truth, and the life, and no man cometh to the Father but through Him.

I am not talking about those lines in the sand.

The laws that I am addressing are the laws that vary from person to person, church to church, denomination from denomination, that come from a man's conviction that he extends to try to include everyone else around him. These are the things that have destroyed the church, because people cannot dissociate the difference between a man's conviction, and the foundational truth of the gospel.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by votivesoul

Whenever a believer in Messiah Jesus speaks or writes on His behalf, especially in the first person, as though the Lord was speaking through the person, they are, at the very least, implying that they are a prophet. And at the very most, they are outright proclaiming themselves to be such, for this is the best, most literal definition of a prophet: a mouthpiece or spokesperson for God.

I had to offer a response to this statement. I see your logic, but I wouldn't call myself a prophet. I'm just as tragically flawed as anyone else. I just had to share what I felt God tell me. I was too scared to share it when it first happened. I was afraid people would think I was crazy. However, from that moment I did begin applying the logic and principles of what I felt that God was telling me. Michael pointed this out well in the beginning of this thread. This isn't a fiery or booming, "Thus saith the LORD..." kind of admonition that I've heard or read form those who do walk in the prophetic. I don't think I come close to being a prophet. And I definitely wouldn't call myself a prophet.

I just wanted to try to clarify. Because I think we have enough self proclaimed prophets running around. I'm just a brother sharing something that he believes God told him.

[votivesoul]

Originally Posted by Aquila

I had to offer a response to this statement. I see your logic, but I wouldn't call myself a prophet. I'm just as tragically flawed as anyone else. I just had to share what I felt God tell me. I was too scared to share it when it first happened. I was afraid people would think I was crazy. However, from that moment I did begin applying the logic and principles of what I felt that God was telling me. Michael pointed this out well in the beginning of this thread. This isn't a fiery or booming, "Thus saith the LORD..." kind of admonition that I've heard or read form those who do walk in the prophetic. I don't think I come close to being a prophet. And I definitely wouldn't call myself a prophet.

I just wanted to try to clarify. Because I think we have enough self proclaimed prophets running around. I'm just a brother sharing something that he believes God told him.

Thanks for the reply. We are all instructed to "seek the Lord, if haply [we] might feel after him..." (Acts 17:27).

I am all for this. We are but earthen vessels. The charismata are an interesting, nigh-inexhaustible topic. We all need the time to develop and so come to a better understanding of the gifts God has bestowed upon us.

I think it was good of you to share, despite the anxiety. In the end, whether you were right on, or I was, or Michael, or anyone else, the fact that you are trying, to me, is a worthy effort. How else can we covet the best gifts if we never step out and hope to be used in them?

And the fact is, we put way too much into the word prophet. Anyone who prophesies is a prophet. It's no great boast to be called a prophet. I am not calling you one, nor, apparently are you proclaiming to be one. But the word you shared, if from God, would, by definition, be prophetic, hence my opening comments.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by votivesoul

Thanks for the reply. We are all instructed to "seek the Lord, if haply [we] might feel after him..." (Acts 17:27).

I am all for this. We are but earthen vessels. The charismata are an interesting, nigh-inexhaustible topic. We all need the time to develop and so come to a better understanding of the gifts God has bestowed upon us.

I think it was good of you to share, despite the anxiety. In the end, whether you were right on, or I was, or Michael, or anyone else, the fact that you are trying, to me, is a worthy effort. How else can we covet the best gifts if we never step out and hope to be used in them?

And the fact is, we put way too much into the word prophet. Anyone who prophesies is a prophet. It's no great boast to be called a prophet. I am not calling you one, nor, apparently are you proclaiming to be one. But the word you shared, if from God, would, by definition, be prophetic, hence my opening comments.

Great points. Thank you for the kind words of encouragement.

[votivesoul]

Originally Posted by Aquila

Great points. Thank you for the kind words of encouragement.

Who is weak and I am not weak?

I make mistakes. I should hope for the grace and mercy when I goof up that I ought to show to others when I think they have erred.