My Talk With God:

[crakjak]

Originally Posted by Timmy

Timmy,
You might enjoy Dr. Wayne Dyer's new book, "I See Clearly Now".
Most Christians likely would miss the point because he is not a born again Christian, and that he acknowledges God in a different way.

[pilgram]

Originally Posted by votivesoul

Whenever a believer in Messiah Jesus speaks or writes on His behalf, especially in the first person, as though the Lord was speaking through the person, they are, at the very least, implying that they are a prophet. And at the very most, they are outright proclaiming themselves to be such, for this is the best, most literal definition of a prophet: a mouthpiece or spokesperson for God.

And since the original poster has written to us in first person what he claims are the words of the Lord Jesus, then we must, WE MUST, apply the Spirit-inspired principles that govern what we, as Christ's Body, are supposed to do when a prophet or "prophet" speaks, which is this:

1 Corinthians 14:29,


The prophet has permission to speak (or in this case write), but the contents of his or her message must be submitted to others for the purpose of judging what was said/written, to either authenticate or dismiss the message.

Aquila has done this much, and is to be commended for allowing others to judge what he claims is a "word from the Lord".

With all that being said, for whatever it is worth, I give my judgment...

After reading just the first few statements, I was convinced that what I was reading was not something the Lord would say. I quote:



For this point forward, much was made against the idea of "lists".

I have to say it: God is the one that creates lists, especially lists of "do's and don'ts".

Note the following lists authored by God:

1.) The Decalogue, or Ten Commandments

Moses, under inspiration, even calls them the "Ten Commandments" (See Exodus 34:28, Deuteronomy 4:13, and 10:4).

This list was created, compiled, and commanded into existence by the LORD.

2.) The six things the LORD hates, with the seventh making for an abomination:

Proverbs 6:16-19,



Here, another very obvious list is generated by our God. These items are enumerated and given in a specific order, the very definition of a list.

3.) The Genealogies (See 1 Chronicles 1-9).

God inspired nine chapters worth of lists of who's who in His Word!

4.) A sampling of the varied works of the flesh:

Galatians 5:19-21,



5.) What becomes of people who are given over to uncleanness by God and ought to be considered reprobates:

Romans 1:28-32,



Another Holy Spirit-inspired, God-derived "list".

These five items are but a mere demonstration of just how much our Savior is into "lists". I do not see how Yeshua, then, through the Spirit, would condemn us for generating lists, especially lists that separate and divide, and make an obvious distinction between what is and is not righteous.

For example, works of the flesh are "don'ts". Do we all agree?

So, from that point forward, since the opening statements, in my opinion, seem contrary to the revealed appreciation God has for making lists, I think we can conclude that the Lord would not have said what is claimed He said.

And if the opening statements then are, at the least, suspect, and at the most, outright contradictions, how much more of the contents can be trusted?

I have no personal vendetta against Aquila, nor wish to publicly argue and fight over whether "thus saith the Lord".

As the Lord said in John 5:30,



As I read the original post, I judged. I for one believe my judgment is just, because I do not seek my own will in this. I only want for God's will to be done in this matter.

Did the Lord speak to our brother?

All I can say is what he himself said:



Even the author admits to having to paraphrase and apply an interpretation to the "block of emotions" he received.

Perhaps the Lord was speaking, and did convey, through a "block of emotions" a message to Aquila. I will not say against it. But we have a right, even a duty to question the interpretational paraphrasing by which the "block of emotions" has been presented.

I submit then, that, even if the Lord was communicating, the message may have been mis-understood or not received properly.

More than that, I cannot say. But, since we are commanded by the Holy Scriptures to judge prophetic utterances, I have at least, done my part to give my judgment. In this case, it happens to be against what was shared.

Some have taken heart and received what Aquila wrote. I do not say you are wrong and I am right. But I do exhort all of us to sincerely compare everything that was written to the Word and consider what I've shared here thoroughly, before any possible, lasting damage is done.

Lord, correct your servant if I have come against you!

Spot on brother. Amen. We need to remember Jer 17:9

[KeptByTheWord]

Originally Posted by votivesoul

It may be so, but then again, the argument against man-made lists doesn't always hold water, since many of these "lists" are found in Scripture. It's usually the application of the list, or how binding the items are that are found in the list, that is at issue.

There are some real nutters out there, to be sure. But there are also some very sincere, God-fearing people who strive and contend for the faith as they understand it. But this automatically leads to division against those who understand the faith differently. We are but flesh, right?

Even Jesus said He came not to bring peace, but a sword. Members of one's own family can become enemies over the doctrine of Christ.

Today, while reading up on an unrelated topic, I came upon a verse that seems to weigh in on this thread. I share it now for consideration:

1 Timothy 6:3-5,



We are even supposed to withdraw ourselves from brethren, people of the faith, if they do not consent to wholesome words, and etc.

To me, this goes back to the heart of Aquila's opening post. How can we obey verses like this without drawing a line in the sand? How can we know from whom we must withdraw, if we don't at first create an awareness and understanding of what Paul meant here in 1 Timothy 6?

This is God-ordained dis-unity. The Lord, while wanting for us all to become one with Him, nonetheless doesn't always want us to become one with each other if such a oneness compromises us.

OF COURSE there are things that the Lord requires of us. Yet, you know as well as I do, that a man receives a conviction on a certain thing from the Lord. Instead of accepting that it is just a conviction for himself, this man thinks that now everyone needs to obey this particular conviction he received from the Lord. Hence... a man-made rule. Even though the conviction was for him personally, he begins a ministry making it everyone's conviction. This is the kind of thing that you can find in almost every OP/Apostolic church. You can't go to two churches, and find two groups of people who believe exactly the same thing on every single account. This is the issue I am addressing, and perhaps what Aquila was referencing.

Of course, there are lines in the sand that must be drawn. The bottom line is that we must believe that Jesus lived, died, was buried, and rose again for our sins. That He alone is our mediator, and it is to Him that we must answer to. He is the way, the truth, and the life, and no man cometh to the Father but through Him.

I am not talking about those lines in the sand.

The laws that I am addressing are the laws that vary from person to person, church to church, denomination from denomination, that come from a man's conviction that he extends to try to include everyone else around him. These are the things that have destroyed the church, because people cannot dissociate the difference between a man's conviction, and the foundational truth of the gospel.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by votivesoul

If we love Him we keep His commandments, right?

Amen. However, Jesus boiled it all down to two primary commandments.

1.) Love God with all one’s heart, mind, soul, and strength.
2.) Demonstrate our love for God by loving our neighbor as ourselves.

I’d like to draw our attention these texts:

Matthew 22:37-40
King James Version (KJV)
37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38 This is the first and great commandment.
39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

Romans 13:9
For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Galatians 5:14
For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Romans 13:9 says it very eloquently. It mentions several of the Ten Commandments and then states, “and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.”

True, Christ-like love will automatically cause no harm to another. It will not kill, commit adultery, steal, bear false witness, or covet. Therefore, if we simply love one another as ourselves, we will automatically fulfill the whole of law.

The corollary being that those who do not keep the Lord's commandments prove that they do not love Him as they say. Again we are drawn back to lists. What are the commandments of the Lord Jesus? How do we keep them properly? What if we don't agree? Can we be in sincere disagreement with one another without being in trouble with the Savior?

I believe the commandments of Christ are simply:

1.) Love God with all one’s heart, mind, soul, and strength.
2.) Demonstrate our love for God by loving our neighbor as ourselves.

Paul asked the Galatians, "Am I now become your enemy because I tell you the truth"?

He called them foolish, said they were bewitched, said they had fallen from grace, and even desired that the Judaizers who had corrupted them would be castrated.

Are these words "loving" or "wholesome"?

Sometimes, the greatest words of love hurt us the most. We need censure, we need reproof and rebuke, we need verbal chastisement, we need to be upbraided.

Yes, love is often tough. I’m not talking about a frilly emotional love. I’m talking about Christ-like love.

[Carl]

It is easier to come up with lists rather than allow Christ to be formed in us. There are a lot of principles in the bible that have become absolutes to measure one another by. However having observed some churches that have done away with the "lists" I shudder at what they have become and wonder where it will lead them.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Carl

It is easier to come up with lists rather than allow Christ to be formed in us. There are a lot of principles in the bible that have become absolutes to measure one another by. However having observed some churches that have done away with the "lists" I shudder at what they have become and wonder where it will lead them.

When they abandon lists and fall into grave error, it shows the danger of legalism. They never spiritually matured.

[Michael The Disciple]

My child, I will tell you why you are all so divided. It is your religions. They are not of me. Each of you has a list. A list of do’s and don’ts. And each of you think that I authored your respective lists. Baptists have their list, Catholics have their lists, Pentecostals have their lists, Methodists have their lists, Lutherans have their lists, Charismatics have their lists, Messianics have their lists, Episcopals have their lists… each list is different. I’m not a God of confusion.

So none of those "lists" matter. I agree. However the commandments and instructions of Christ given through his apostles are very critical to the saints.

Jesus himself is identified with them.

14:12 Here is the patience of the saints, those who keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.” Rev. 14:12

[votivesoul]

Regarding the Two Greatest Commandments...

Loving God and loving each other have a massive subset of commandments. Even the Second Commandment is a subset of the First (Mark 12:31). But also, the First is a subset of the Second (1 John 4:20).

But as Paul wrote, these subset are nonetheless eloquently summed up by the royal law.

But this is my point and has been from the beginning:

From what I've read on this board, in a very specific area, there are two mutually exclusive views on the nature of the resurrection. One espouses an immediate entrance into heaven, the other states that the soul "sleeps", for lack of a better word, with the body, until the Second Coming.

The people who have discussed this topic are adamant that their particular view is the correct doctrine of Christ. But since each view is mutually exclusive, meaning that the views can in no way be reconciled, it forces and enforces an ideological division between the two camps.

If the opening statements attributed to the Lord are truly from Him, then it would be easy to come to the following (false) conclusion:

The people on this board, because they are divided over this doctrine, must not love God or each other, or else they wouldn't be so divided. Only one position on the resurrection can be true, so the other incorrect position is nothing more than a tradition of men, making those who have embraced it the real cause of the division, because they are teaching a false view. They take Scripture out of context, wrest and twist the Word against their own souls, and, oh, by the way, here is my list of Scriptures which shows how wrong they are while proving how right I/we am/are.

Should we come to such a conclusion? Or can two washed, justified, sanctified, Spirit-filled believers, who don't believe exactly the same way, but who have obeyed and practice the same Gospel of the same Lord, still have differing views without being divided from one another regarding the love they have for God and each other? Even though they have opposing, mutually exclusive beliefs and use and understand the same verses of Scripture differently from each other?

I affirm yes. Two CAN walk together and be agreed even if not everything they believe and think is identical at all times. It's James and Paul.

James sent some Jewish believers to where Simon Peter, Paul, and Barnabas were at, and it caused an issue for Simon and Barnabas, such that Paul reproved Peter to his face in front of everyone.

And yet, when Paul made it back to Jerusalem, he and James were on good terms, and Paul even submitted to an ordinance given to him by James, one that, inadvertently, led to Paul's arrest, imprisonment, and eventual martyrdom in Rome.

James bragged to Paul about how many thousands of Christian Jews there were in Jerusalem who were zealous for the law. Paul wrote to the Roman Jews of the Church and reprimanded them for making their boast in the law. A true dichotomy, and yet no love lost for God or each other. They still had the unity of the Spirit.

Therefore the issue isn't our lists or doctrinal disagreements. It's a matter of the heart, a heart that either chooses or refuses to love God and each other, no matter the differences in our lists or doctrinal beliefs.

A slight distinction, perhaps, but one that makes a big difference.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

So none of those "lists" matter. I agree. However the commandments and instructions of Christ given through his apostles are very critical to the saints.

Jesus himself is identified with them.

14:12 Here is the patience of the saints, those who keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.” Rev. 14:12

And... as it is written,

Romans 13:9
For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Keep it simple. Legalism loves complexities. The measure of an illuminated spirituality isn't in it's complexity. It's in it's simplicity.

When the books are opened and the believer is judged. He or she will not be judged on their hair, clothing, dress codes, religious dogmas, or legalisms... their every thought, word, and deed will be judged as to if it were a demonstration of love. Were they demonstrating the love of God by loving others?

[crakjak]

Originally Posted by Aquila

And... as it is written,

Romans 13:9
For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Keep it simple. Legalism loves complexities. The measure of an illuminated spirituality isn't in it's complexity. It's in it's simplicity.

When the books are opened and the believer is judged. He or she will not be judged on their hair, clothing, dress codes, religious dogmas, or legalisms... their every thought, word, and deed will be judged as to if it were a demonstration of love. Were they demonstrating the love of God by loving others?

According to Matt. 25, we will be judged primarily on how we treated the less fortunate!! That seems to be the only judgment that effects one's punishment.