Oneness Questions - Page 14

Sean · #**131** 05-01-2014, 07:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Praxeas

First of all, it's not centuries ago. They still are around today and they call themselves Unitarians

How is it a cop out to identify belief systems? Do you refrain from using the words "Catholic, Christian, Muslims, Baptist, American etc etc etc"? Do you? Why are you so bothered by labels? It's a false argument unless you never EVER use a label for someone's belief system

Im speaking in terms of a (personal debate) setting. If I come in saying some extra biblical terms about some unknown group and comparing it to my opponent. He can rightfully say to me "I dont believe like they do", even if there are some "similarities" there. Prax...I can call you a "catholic" because they are Christian and believe in Jesus like you. You think thats ridiculous and it is. Well thats what I think when people try to put us in the HERESY box, first of all, they only have (their) "perfect doctrinal belief system" to compare to. I dont like to do that to people, because when I do, it creates an atmosphere that my beliefs are "superior" to theirs. It is also a strategy used to "isolate" your opponent. Luke did not even try to do that to me and he was my opponent...he just wanted straight answers to my concepts.

Look, I put these concepts out there to define "true" oneness teaching (in my mind). I PARROTED the GOD/MAN concept for years in probably 500 bible studies. I still saw 2 dieties in some form.(I see it though a microscope, not just in general terms) It troubled me. It was just a little different than a trinitarian point of view. (there is very little contrast between us and them unless we can define our beliefs).

They can quote 1 Tim 3:16 also, and trinitize it. Its not hard. They believe whole heartedly God became a man! My brethren say the same thing.

I dont believe God "became" a man. I believe God created the man and dwelled in THE man(Jesus). In my point of view ,there is no such thing as a dual nature God/Man(ie.."Jesus had a dual nature"). Thats right in "our" little book of doctrine and creeds .(I have one from the 60s)

Our brethren say that Jesus is God but they must "define" that. it has "similarities" to the trinity.....thats exactly why they(many trinitarians) cant see a difference between us and them.

Dichotomy Girl · #**132** 05-01-2014, 07:47 AM

This may surprise some, but I still consider myself to be oneness. My Favorite "oneness" scripture is Colossians 1:15-20

15 The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. 17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. 18 And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy. 19 For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, 20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.

To me it pretty much says that Jesus is everything. He's the only way that we can SEE God, his life and words and teachings, show us the true character of God.

Sean · #**133** 05-01-2014, 07:48 AM

Prax...Is "unitarian" a heresy?

If I teach what they teach, am I a heretic?

If I am a heretic.....please "prove" it. for my sake.(I dont want to be a heretic),,,I will go back to the dual nature stuff...

Praxeas · #**134** 05-01-2014, 04:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aquila

Yes, I know that's what you said. My point is... what I believe isn't Unitarianism. The Unitarians would never accept that we see two persons (one human and one divine) partaking in one another's essence and nature, thereby making them one in spirit, one being (one thing). The man Christ Jesus being one with the Father. Oneness.

Yes they would. They believe that second human person has God in Him.

BTW if you are saying they are One in Divine Spirit (meaning the second person is God too), then you don't really believe the second person was human, but human AND Divine.

That would be Binitarianism or Polytheism depending on how some other factors

Praxeas · #**135** 05-01-2014, 04:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sean

Im speaking in terms of a (personal debate) setting. If I come in saying some extra biblical terms about some unknown group and comparing it to my opponent. He can rightfully say to me "I dont believe like they do", even if there are some "similarities" there. Prax...I can call you a "catholic" because they are Christian and believe in Jesus like you. You think thats ridiculous and it is. Well thats what I think when people try to put us in the HERESY box, first of all, they only have (their) "perfect doctrinal belief system" to compare to. I dont like to do that to people, because when I do, it creates an atmosphere that my beliefs are "superior" to theirs. It is also a strategy used to "isolate" your opponent. Luke did not even try to do that to me and he was my opponent...he just wanted straight answers to my concepts.

Look, I put these concepts out there to define "true" oneness teaching (in my mind). I PARROTED the GOD/MAN concept for years in probably 500 bible studies. I still saw 2 dieties in some form.(I see it though a microscope, not just in general terms) It troubled me. It was just a little different than a trinitarian point of view. (there is very little contrast between us and them unless we can define our beliefs).

They can quote 1 Tim 3:16 also, and trinitize it. Its not hard. They believe whole heartedly God became a man! My brethren say the same thing.

I dont believe God "became" a man. I believe God created the man and dwelled in THE man(Jesus). In my point of view ,there is no such thing as a dual nature God/Man(ie.."Jesus had a dual nature"). Thats right in "our" little book of doctrine and creeds .(I have one from the 60s)

Our brethren say that Jesus is God but they must "define" that. it has "similarities" to the trinity.....thats exactly why they(many trinitarians) cant see a difference between us and them.

There is nothing wrong with words not used in the bible nor labels. You use them all the time

Your view is called Unitarianism.

Praxeas · #**136** 05-01-2014, 04:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sean

Prax...Is "unitarian" a heresy?

If I teach what they teach, am I a heretic?

If I am a heretic.....please "prove" it. for my sake.(I dont want to be a heretic),,,I will go back to the dual nature stuff...

Im not here to judge a person's salvation. If you want to get into whether or not you are a heretic, ask someone else.

I don't use Unitarian as a synonym for heretic nor for being lost

You are trying to change this from a non personal discussion to an emotional personal discussion

Sean · #**137** 05-01-2014, 04:53 PM

Not at all Prax, I only wanted to point out what I perceive as a weakness in our style of debating an issue. I think everyone is at different levels of knowledge and everyone on AFF (except "NFS") is trying to find their way to the truth. In reality, I want to be "picked apart" if I am wrong. I do not debate issues just to "educate" others in my ideas. If I can get the right person that can put me back in the "manual", I will listen attentively to him.

I got this off the net....boy, is this a misrepresentation of what I believe> Big time "generalizing". JESUS IS THE ONLY SON OF GOD "AND" THE ONE TRUE GOD......YOU HEARD IT FROM ME RIGHT HERE...THESE PEOPLE DO NOT BELIEVE THAT...

Unitarianism is a theological movement, named for its understanding of God as one person, in direct contrast to Trinitarianism, which defines God as three persons coexisting consubstantially as one being.[1] Unitarians maintain that Jesus is in some sense the "son" of God, but not the one God

Some sense the "son' of God, But not the one God.???....I dont teach that!

I do however teach Jesus was "Completely Human" when he walked on earth. Do you agree with that?

I do teach that Jesus did not physically preexist before the virgin birth. Do you agree with that?

I do teach that a human being with a body, soul and human spirit cannot be God. (which is a Spirit) Do you agree with that?

I do teach that Almighty God is "INSIDE" Jesus today in His fullness. Do you agree with that?

The FULLNESS OF THE GODHEAD DWELLETH IN HIM BODILY...That is exactly what I believe and that makes Jesus in my mind, THE ONE AND ONLY TRUE GOD! ...Now this is what I consider true oneness teaching!

I will stop for now. If I am in error, I would like you or any (oneness) brother to "fix" these statements I just made.

However, I am definitely NOT a unitarian.

Praxeas · #**138** 05-01-2014, 06:05 PM

Im not debating. Labeling someone a Unitarian is not a debate issue. Before there can be a debate there has to be definitions on what to debate.

Two Persons. One is God and One is not, is Untarianism

Sean · #**139** 05-01-2014, 10:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Praxeas

Im not debating. Labeling someone a Unitarian is not a debate issue. Before there can be a debate there has to be definitions on what to debate.

Two Persons. One is God and One is not, is Untarianism

I guess that last post just draws a blank to you that I wrote. You are determined to label me no matter what I show you in the last post. Well we will let the readers decide.

votivesoul · #**140** 05-01-2014, 11:18 PM

The big questions being raised here, without even being mentioned until now are the following:

1.) Can or did God trans-substantiate (change from one thing into something entirely else and different) His nature (Divine, Eternal Spirit) in order to literally "become" a human being, and still be God?

2.) Is apotheosis (being elevated to Godhood) possible?

How one answers each question will determine their Christology. Anyone who answers differently from the next person will, by default, have a vastly different understanding of the person and nature of Christ.