You Can Fake It All

[n david]

Originally Posted by ILG

No, you are completely misunderstanding me.

What part of "Hmm, well it certainly sounds like they were faking!" did I not understand? It wasn't said in love or compassion. It was more a gloat than a response showing any fruit of the spirit.

[n david]

Originally Posted by ILG

In the above quotes, I do not once say that UPC'ers are fakers. I'm really sad that you think that. The UPC formula can indeed be faked! That is not at all the same thing as saying that UPC'ers are fakers. Two very different things.

Oh please, you're arguing semantics. Who follows what you call the "UPC formula?" Do not people in the UPC, aka UPCer's, follow this formula?

You said people fake the formula. You even gloated when Charred mentioned a UPC man, along with others, who fell into sin -- "Hmm, well it certainly sounds like they were faking!"

It's the same thing, and you know it.

[ILG]

Originally Posted by n david

What part of "Hmm, well it certainly sounds like they were faking!" did I not understand? It wasn't said in love or compassion. It was more a gloat than a response showing any fruit of the spirit.

It was a statement of fact. It sounds like they were faking. Not a difficult concept.

[ILG]

Originally Posted by n david

Oh please, you're arguing semantics. Who follows what you call the "UPC formula?" Do not people in the UPC, aka UPCer's, follow this formula?

You said people fake the formula. You even gloated when Charred mentioned a UPC man, along with others, who fell into sin -- "Hmm, well it certainly sounds like they were faking!"

It's the same thing, and you know it.

I didn't gloat n david. Some people do fake the formula. Are you denying that? The fact that people can fake the formula and the church not discern it is WHY people in the UPC get hurt. Do you care about this? Would you like to see more discernment and less people hurt? That is the whole point of this discussion from my corner. This isn't about gloating at all. There's nothing to gloat about.

[Dichotomy Girl]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

I don't believe it was an entirely dumb thread. Salvation..can be faked.

Even in the early church..Jesus talked about Wolves. Others talked about men coming in amongst us

I think it's a good thing to remember that it also can be....misplaced. Think of Saul who started out well, but made too many bad choices in the wrong direction.

Or other times when it's more innocuous, more subtle, and you can be completely unaware of it when it's happening.

It reminds me of this poem I wrote, wow, 20 years ago? (I was 19) Now, I don't write poetry much anymore, and if I did, I wouldn't share it with anyone. But this one was special. I was laying in bed one night, about to drift off to sleep, when I suddenly sat up and turned on the light, and this poured out of me, and I wrote it down, in less than 5 minutes. Anyway, it explains what I'm trying to say.

Author's Elegy

On a grassy hidden path one day,
is where I did begin
the sweet perfume of lilac's spray
among the winds of spring.

I stumbled through the bush and brush
and through the fragrant flowers
all the things my eyes did touch
forgotten in the hour

the trees became my domicile
the sparkling stream my bath
when in the course of game or trial
I'd wander off the path

then nightfall came, when I was lost
the world grew cold and still
and all the flora turned to frost
and perished in the chill

and when the subtle rays of morn
caressed with warmth and light
I noticed then, my soul forlorn
my path had vanished in the night

c. 1994 by Me

[KeptByTheWord]

Wow... isn't this a hot thread! Was outside enjoying the sunshine, while things were heating up in here.

Honestly... n David... can't you just admit that religion/salvation can be faked? Prax... good to see that you acknowledge this.

Regardless of what org it happens in.... the point of the thread is this... what causes people to fake their religion? What causes them to adopt an outward set of rules, and whatever else is required, in order to feel like they are being saved?

What makes one org's rules better, or more salvational than another's?

And... to throw in a monkey wrench here to the discussion, I would like to add this. I believe the real reason that causes people to fake their religion, or salvation is because they are scared of going to hell, and yet, don't really want to die out to sin, and self in their life. So, their flesh seeks an alternative.... which is to fake it, and convince yourself that you're "in", and that you're going to heaven...

People fake their religion because they don't want to go to hell, and because it is a social status and standing that they want to keep both here in this life, and in the life to come.

My personal opinion on the matter....

[KeptByTheWord]

Originally Posted by Dichotomy Girl

Author's Elegy

On a grassy hidden path one day,
is where I did begin
the sweet perfume of lilac's spray
among the winds of spring.

I stumbled through the bush and brush
and through the fragrant flowers
all the things my eyes did touch
forgotten in the hour

the trees became my domicile
the sparkling stream my bath
when in the course of game or trial
I'd wander off the path

then nightfall came, when I was lost
the world grew cold and still
and all the flora turned to frost
and perished in the chill

and when the subtle rays of morn
caressed with warmth and light
I noticed then, my soul forlorn
my path had vanished in the night

c. 1994 by Me

YOU are quite the poet ... love it! We are all on a journey through life, and many times that journey takes us places we don't understand. I've learned though that life is an adventure, and even when unpleasant things come along, morning does eventually come.

Beautiful Mich

[ILG]

I think it's a good thing to remember that it also can be....misplaced. Think of Saul who started out well, but made too many bad choices in the wrong direction.

Or other times when it's more innocuous, more subtle, and you can be completely unaware of it when it's happening.

Those are some very good points, Mich. It is good to look at these subjects from many angles, which is why discussing them can be so good and enlightening for those participating. I think this is probably what happens to people who maybe started out right but over time stepped this way and that, and ended up where they didn't mean to be.

Author's Elegy

On a grassy hidden path one day,
is where I did begin
the sweet perfume of lilac's spray
among the winds of spring.

I stumbled through the bush and brush
and through the fragrant flowers
all the things my eyes did touch
forgotten in the hour

the trees became my domicile
the sparkling stream my bath
when in the course of game or trial
I'd wander off the path

then nightfall came, when I was lost
the world grew cold and still
and all the flora turned to frost
and perished in the chill

and when the subtle rays of morn
caressed with warmth and light
I noticed then, my soul forlorn
my path had vanished in the night

c. 1994 by Me

[/QUOTE]

Nice poem! Thanks for sharing!

[ILG]

Originally Posted by KeptByTheWord

Wow... isn't this a hot thread! Was outside enjoying the sunshine, while things were heating up in here.

Honestly... n David... can't you just admit that religion/salvation can be faked? Prax... good to see that you acknowledge this.

Regardless of what org it happens in.... the point of the thread is this... what causes people to fake their religion? What causes them to adopt an outward set of rules, and whatever else is required, in order to feel like they are being saved?

What makes one org's rules better, or more salvational than another's?

And... to throw in a monkey wrench here to the discussion, I would like to add this. I believe the real reason that causes people to fake their religion, or salvation is because they are scared of going to hell, and yet, don't really want to die out to sin, and self in their life. So, their flesh seeks an alternative.... which is to fake it, and convince yourself that you're "in", and that you're going to heaven...

People fake their religion because they don't want to go to hell, and because it is a social status and standing that they want to keep both here in this life, and in the life to come.

My personal opinion on the matter....

Some good points, KBTW!

So, if people fake religion because of their fear of hell, and if this religion put man-made rules onto people that are not necessarily needed the man-made rules in a sense inadvertently help keep people that are faking hidden. The man-made rules could potentially make it harder to discern a faker. What do you think?

[n david]

Originally Posted by KeptByTheWord

Wow... isn't this a hot thread! Was outside enjoying the sunshine, while things were heating up in here.

Honestly... n David... can't you just admit that religion/salvation can be faked?

Yes, I've said that in several posts towards the beginning of this thread. I've never claimed it didn't happen.

It happens in every single church, organization, denomination. Anyone, anywhere, in ANY place can fake whatever.

Since you missed it, there are several posts in which I've said people can fake it:

Originally Posted by n david

Dumb thread. More bash the UPC junk.

You can take your main point and use it for any denomination. But instead, you felt the need to single out the UPC.

You can fake it as a Catholic, Lutheran, Mormon, COGIC, Baptist, "Charismatic," Independent, whatever.

You don't like the UPC, okay, I get it. Just use some intellectual honesty in a thread like this and admit that ANYONE in ANY denomination can fake it. This isn't something limited to the UPC.

Originally Posted by n david

Of course people can fake it.

Originally Posted by n david

My bias is only on this thread because she singled out one organization with something that could happen across the broad spectrum of churches, denominations and organizations. If I read into this, it's only due to her targeting one organization.

Originally Posted by n david

Over 12 years, it's possible he faked it.

Originally Posted by n david

Faking happens everywhere, and it's an incredible small number which do. The overwhelming number of Christians of all denominations are sincere in their faith.

Originally Posted by n david

Newsflash: anything can be faked by anyone.

And across all denominations it's such a small number that it's silly to make a thread about it.