Holinisness is not....

[Luke]

Originally Posted by Aquila

Sin has affected us down to the very genetic level. We see the affects of sin in our members in the fact that our bodies age, that we are prone to disease and sickness, that chemical and hormonal imbalances can lead to sinful behaviors ranging from rage to promiscuity. We see birth defects. We see deformity in brain development that leaves one prone to violent and even psychotic behaviors. This flesh is tragically fallen and flawed. Bears the affects and marks of sin. It's like a system with a rampant computer virus raging through it.

Romans 7:23
But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

Romans 7:18
For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.

Victory can only be maintained through walking in the Spirit (Romans 8). But the battle will not cease until this flesh is either dead or glorified.

Sin is a choice that we make to disobey God and do what we know to be wrong. We cannot as children of God be forced to sin we have to choose to sin. I agree that the affects of the fall in a physical sense will be with us until death but sin is not a physical entity that we can hold and see and study. We can see the results of sin and the fruit of sin and the acting out of sin but not the principle of sin itself. Ageing, death, disease and sickness are all things that we see they are all physical but there is no sin in experencing any of these things. By the very fact that we overcome sin by walking in the spirit shows it to be a spiritual battle conquered by spiritual means.

Romans 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

1 Thessalonians 5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.



I agree that one can be free in spirit but not in spirit or in other words they can be saved and not have the fallen carnal nature eradicated they are simply not sanctified wholly yet.

Romans 8:10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Luke

Sin is a choice that we make to disobey God and do what we know to be wrong. We cannot as children of God be forced to sin we have to choose to sin. I agree that the affects of the fall in a physical sense will be with us until death but sin is not a physical entity that we can hold and see and study. We can see the results of sin and the fruit of sin and the acting out of sin but not the principle of sin itself. Ageing, death, disease and sickness are all things that we see they are all physical but there is no sin in experencing any of these things. By the very fact that we overcome sin by walking in the spirit shows it to be a spiritual battle conquered by spiritual means.

Romans 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

1 Thessalonians 5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.



I agree that one can be free in spirit but not in spirit or in other words they can be saved and not have the fallen carnal nature eradicated they are simply not sanctified wholly yet.

Romans 8:10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

So, where do we disagree? lol

[Luke]

Originally Posted by Aquila

So, where do we disagree? lol

I think we agree alot as to the life of a christian that has not been wholly sanctified. The main point of our disagreement falls on this aspects of sanctification

1. The timing of sanctification:
I would say that we are wholly sanctified in this life after salvation.

2. The scope of sanctification:
I would say that sanctification eradicates our sin nature and makes us holy.

3: The how of sanctification:
I would say that sanctification is an instantaneous work of God in our hearts received by faith through the blood of Jesus.

These are as I am sure you realize very simple and consice statements to put forth in basic tems the tenets of my position.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Luke

I think we agree alot as to the life of a christian that has not been wholly sanctified. The main point of our disagreement falls on this aspects of sanctification

1. The timing of sanctification:
I would say that we are wholly sanctified in this life after salvation.

2. The scope of sanctification:
I would say that sanctification eradicates our sin nature and makes us holy.

3: The how of sanctification:
I would say that sanctification is an instantaneous work of God in our hearts received by faith through the blood of Jesus.

These are as I am sure you realize very simple and consice statements to put forth in basic tems the tenets of my position.

I believe:

We are fully sanctified as it relates to our spirit in this life after regeneration.

Sanctification is the process of mortifying the flesh through the Spirit and living victoriously over it's sinful impulses.

[Luke]

Originally Posted by Aquila

I believe:

We are fully sanctified as it relates to our spirit in this life after regeneration.

Sanctification is the process of mortifying the flesh through the Spirit and living victoriously over it's sinful impulses.

The church I was raised in held to that same position but in all actuality there was not a lot of teaching on the doctrine of sanctification. When i started studying on the doctrine for myself i came to the beliefs that i hold to now.

The place where our disagreement centers is the word "PROCESS". I would say that sanctification is an instantaneous work or act on God's part and an experience with lasting ongoing effects on our part rather than a process.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Luke

The church I was raised in held to that same position but in all actuality there was not a lot of teaching on the doctrine of sanctification. When i started studying on the doctrine for myself i came to the beliefs that i hold to now.

The place where our disagreement centers is the word "PROCESS". I would say that sanctification is an instantaneous work or act on God's part and an experience with lasting ongoing effects on our part rather than a process.

Let's see how close we can come to agreement...

I believe that entire sanctification is an instantaneous work on God's part as it relates to the spirit of man. This is brought about by your union with Him when we receive the Holy Spirit. In my theological framework, this is the doctrine of regeneration. The "process" of sanctification is the growing realization and action on the part of the believer as it relates to aligning behavior with this inner reality. The struggle is therefore between the inner reality of the sanctified spirit's dwelling and the unregenerate, unsanctified, flesh in which it resides. The flesh will continue to have it's predisposition towards self centered pleasures and sinful tendencies until death or glorification. This struggle strengthens the spirit's resolve and desire for true perfection. Once realized in glorification the spirit will thrive unhindered and enjoy the true perfection in Christ that it has desired. During this life long struggle between flesh and spirit the believer is covered by the umbrella of divine grace.

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by Aquila

Let's see how close we can come to agreement...

I believe that entire sanctification is an instantaneous work on God's part as it relates to the spirit of man. This is brought about by your union with Him when we receive the Holy Spirit. In my theological framework, this is the doctrine of regeneration. The "process" of sanctification is the growing realization and action on the part of the believer as it relates to aligning behavior with this inner reality. The struggle is therefore between the inner reality of the sanctified spirit's dwelling and the unregenerate, unsanctified, flesh in which it resides. The flesh will continue to have it's predisposition towards self centered pleasures and sinful tendencies until death or glorification. This struggle strengthens the spirit's resolve and desire for true perfection. Once realized in glorification the spirit will thrive unhindered and enjoy the true perfection in Christ that it has desired. During this life long struggle between flesh and spirit the believer is covered by the umbrella of divine grace.

Struggle mans to fight. Because one struggles against sin does not mean he is IN sin. If one actually STRUGGLES against sin (assuming he has the Holy Spirit) there is no reason why he will not be victorious!

Its when one ceases to struggle that he will give in and obey the flesh.

[Luke]

Originally Posted by Aquila

Let's see how close we can come to agreement...

I believe that entire sanctification is an instantaneous work on God's part

Thus far we are in total agreement.

Originally Posted by Aquila

as it relates to the spirit of man.

To an extent i agree but according to the biblical definition of entire sanctification it reaches more than just our spirit:

1 Thess. 5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
24 Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it.

Entire sanctification deals with the entire man.

Originally Posted by Aquila

This is brought about by your union with Him when we receive the Holy Spirit.

Here also I need to interject:

Hebrews 10:14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,

There are three distinct works of grace that God does in the life of a person

1.Salvation

2.Sanctification

3.Baptism in the Holy Ghost

Originally Posted by Aquila

In my theological framework, this is the doctrine of regeneration.

Regeneration can and does encompass many things but a distinction needs to be made between salvation sanctification and the Baptism in the Holy Ghost these are not all the same work.

Originally Posted by Aquila

The "process" of sanctification is the growing realization and action on the part of the believer as it relates to aligning behavior with this inner reality. The struggle is therefore between the inner reality of the sanctified spirit's dwelling and the unregenerate, unsanctified, flesh in which it resides. The flesh will continue to have it's predisposition towards self centered pleasures and sinful tendencies until death or glorification. This struggle strengthens the spirit's resolve and desire for true perfection. Once realized in glorification the spirit will thrive unhindered and enjoy the true perfection in Christ that it has desired. During this life long struggle between flesh and spirit the believer is covered by the umbrella of divine grace.

I don't see any process of sanctification other than as Wesley put it at the point of salvation our flesh begins to die but there comes a point when in an instant that death is complete and that point is entire sanctification. After sanctification there are still many things to learn and grow in. This does not mean that we grow more and more sanctified because once we are sanctified that is what we are. To illustrate this point think of a watermellon plant once the seed dies and the plant sprouts it will never be more of a watermellon plant than it is then. Also no matter how big it grows it will always be a watermellon plant it does not change from one plant to another no matter the growth it remains what it is. Same way with us once we are sanctified we remain sanctified unless we forfiet our standing with God. We do not grow into something other than what we are.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Luke

I don't see any process of sanctification other than as Wesley put it at the point of salvation our flesh begins to die but there comes a point when in an instant that death is complete and that point is entire sanctification. After sanctification there are still many things to learn and grow in. This does not mean that we grow more and more sanctified because once we are sanctified that is what we are. To illustrate this point think of a watermellon plant once the seed dies and the plant sprouts it will never be more of a watermellon plant than it is then. Also no matter how big it grows it will always be a watermellon plant it does not change from one plant to another no matter the growth it remains what it is. Same way with us once we are sanctified we remain sanctified unless we forfiet our standing with God. We do not grow into something other than what we are.

I can see what you're saying. I guess that's not as crazy as what I thought you were trying to say. Perhaps growth is a better term than process, given the way you're looking at it.

There is one thing I disagreed with. However, it's a topic that deserves it's own thread and has been debated and discussed for hundreds of years.

...unless we forfiet our standing with God.

I don't believe we can forfeit our standing with God. I believe that God has chosen His elect before the foundations of the world. Not predicated upon anything they would ever say, do, or believer. But rather in accordance to His divine will and purpose as it relates to His glory. That being said, I don't believe that God merely gives up on His elect. Oh, they might sin. They might even rebel and try to forfeit their standing with God. However, He will efficaciously bring them to their knees through subtle conviction... or raw and awesome power. He never lets go. He never gives up. He never fails. Those who may partake in God's gracious goodness and then fall away... only reveal that they were never of the elect.

But that's my opinion on the issue. I don't think those who might disagree are lost. I simply think that they don't understand the sovereignty and power of God.