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  #131  
Old 06-12-2014, 08:23 PM
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Re: Heretics and Politics by Thomas A. Fudge

Does anyone know if the David Wasmundt in Fudge's book is the same David Wasmundt that wrote Pendulum Extremes?
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  #132  
Old 06-12-2014, 08:56 PM
RunningOnFaith RunningOnFaith is offline
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Re: Heretics and Politics by Thomas A. Fudge

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Originally Posted by Disciple4life View Post
It had to do with more than just Don Fisher. The two other teachers that were more open-minded were Lewis and Howell.

Did they (the teachers) push it too far?
Fudge at one point says that if you want to work at Jackson you have to respect that you have to teach certain things.

But the other side is that if the UPCI was TRULY interested in education, a student or teacher asking a question does not hurt the college.

Eventually EVERYBODY leaves the UPC. Why?
They were not given enough leeway to reform the Church/School/Themselves. So they probably figured it was time to move on.
I also found the situation at Jackson to be interesting. I have recently contacted Joseph Howell and he has agreed to send me the booklist and his FSU dissertation “People of the Name”. It should be interesting.

I found very little evidence in Fudge’s book that Lewis, Howell, or Fisher actively taught ideas that would be considered heresy if one defines it by the 1945 merger agreement that allowed divergent views. Jerry Dillon’s views regarding the nature of God were suspect, but when he was questioned about it in a meeting of local Pastor that included conservatives-- they were satisfied with his answers. I certainly don’t think these men would have been considered liberals in the wider world of theological education. If their ideas regarding historical criticism were similar to the text they used by Bernard Ramm, it is hard for me to understand how this could have been problematic to anyone. Dr. Fudge points out that Ramm was influenced by Barth. Much of Barth’s work itself was a reaction against theological liberalism (albeit he would be strong enough on inspiration for most UPC folks). These men understood that the Bible did not fall down from heaven in a leather edition complete with maps. There is often a deconstruction and reconstruction of faith in the process of serious learning; if truth really matters this ought not to bother us. That Bloesch influenced some of the JCM faculty seems to indicate to me that they were looking for models on how to develop a “mediating” system of thought within the school.

Dr. Fudge is certainly passionate about academic freedom. One of the most disturbing violations documented was when the JCM library was “purged” of certain books that were added by Fisher (p. 97-98). Reading a book in no way entails agreement with the content. Academic freedom in the liberal arts and sciences should be non-negotiable. I would hasten to add that academic freedom is a two way street—conservatives must be given the right to speak out about their ideas as well. Absolute academic freedom in theological education is a more difficult question. Biblical Scholars should be able to follow the evidence wherever it leads. But, just about all of the Seminaries that Fudge sites as having problems are financed by evangelical denominations. What, if any say should they have about the teachings of the Seminaries? It is one thing to go after people for trivial doctrinal reasons and hair splitting that are obviously power plays, but what about extreme cases where a professor claims to no longer believe in God or begins to teach the virtues of abortion and wants to keep their job (it has happened)? However, I see nothing that these people in this book believed remotely undermined the life of the Church.

Fudge’s book is well written. The writing and the photographs/documents give a vivid sense of a time and place that is gone, never to return. I don’t agree with him about everything, but he has a gift of combining historical accuracy, deep cultural perception, and theological knowledge of regarding all the issues. Parts of it left me with a troubled sad feeling.

BTW, it seemed obvious to me that one of the conspirators of the secret recordings of the meeting was Fudge himself (it was pretty thinly veiled in my view that he was Manchester). I could be dead wrong about this, but did anyone else that read the book come to this conclusion?

Last edited by RunningOnFaith; 06-12-2014 at 09:20 PM.
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  #133  
Old 06-12-2014, 09:06 PM
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Re: Heretics and Politics by Thomas A. Fudge

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Originally Posted by Disciple4life View Post
Does anyone know if the David Wasmundt in Fudge's book is the same David Wasmundt that wrote Pendulum Extremes?
I believe it is.
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  #134  
Old 06-12-2014, 09:13 PM
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Re: Heretics and Politics by Thomas A. Fudge

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Originally Posted by Disciple4life View Post
Does anyone know if the David Wasmundt in Fudge's book is the same David Wasmundt that wrote Pendulum Extremes?
Yes, it is he, those guys were just all trouble makers. But we should not forget that today heretics are often tomorrow's heroes!
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  #135  
Old 06-12-2014, 09:16 PM
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Re: Heretics and Politics by Thomas A. Fudge

Maybe I should stir up some trouble then somebody would write a book on me!
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  #136  
Old 06-12-2014, 09:29 PM
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Re: Heretics and Politics by Thomas A. Fudge

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Originally Posted by RunningOnFaith View Post
I also found the situation at Jackson to be interesting. I have recently contacted Joseph Howell and he has agreed to send me the booklist and his FSU dissertation “People of the Name”. It should be interesting.

BTW, it seemed obvious to me that one of the conspirators of the secret recordings of the meeting was Fudge himself (it was pretty thinly veiled in my view that he was Manchester). I could be dead wrong about this, but did anyone else that read the book come to this conclusion?
I wonder why more people who have materials like these don't release them on kindle? Or Pdf?

No huge investment to get 2000 or 3000 books printed, charge a few bucks per sale and it is a win win situation for everybody.

When I was reading the part about the secret recording I couldn't get the mission impossible tune out of my head. So I went back a few line and reread them. Fudge wrote that section with a little more oomph and pizzazz to get a spy movie feel. My two cents.

I don't know if Fudge was physically involved but I did get the feeling that he thought that was the ultra cool part of the story, that he was just dying to write.
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  #137  
Old 06-12-2014, 09:45 PM
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Re: Heretics and Politics by Thomas A. Fudge

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I wonder why more people who have materials like these don't release them on kindle? Or Pdf?

No huge investment to get 2000 or 3000 books printed, charge a few bucks per sale and it is a win win situation for everybody.

.
Kindle ebooks are great. They are a great way to publish books with limited appeal since there is zero cost to the author and they get I think 33% of the sell price.

However when it comes to this type book the author probably knows there is an audience of 1000 folks or so that will pay $30 bucks for it and his share of that $30 is substantial after the cost of printing the book. I doubt there are enough of us who would be interested in it at $9.99 in a kindle edition to net him the same amount. BTW "The Winds of God" by Ethel Goss is available as a kindle ebook for $9.99.
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"We did not wear uniforms. The lady workers dressed in the current fashions of the day, ...silks...satins...jewels or whatever they happened to possess. They were very smartly turned out, so that they made an impressive appearance on the streets where a large part of our work was conducted in the early years.

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Quote from Ethel Goss (widow of 1st UPC Gen Supt. Howard Goss) book "The Winds of God"
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  #138  
Old 06-12-2014, 10:07 PM
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Re: Heretics and Politics by Thomas A. Fudge

My point was that some of this stuff will never be released.

Joseph Howell FSU dissertation “People of the Name”.

Why not release it on Kindle and make a couple of bucks instead of it never seeing the light of day.

In fact Dr. Fudge should start his own publishing company. Every time he mentions a book/paper/article I comb the web for it. He could get my money from buying his book and then get more of my money when I buy the material he publishes.
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Last edited by Disciple4life; 06-12-2014 at 10:12 PM.
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  #139  
Old 06-12-2014, 10:29 PM
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Re: Heretics and Politics by Thomas A. Fudge

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Originally Posted by Disciple4life View Post
My point was that some of this stuff will never be released.

Joseph Howell FSU dissertation “People of the Name”.

Why not release it on Kindle and make a couple of bucks instead of it never seeing the light of day.

In fact Dr. Fudge should start his own publishing company. Every time he mentions a book/paper/article I comb the web for it. He could get my money from buying his book and then get more of my money when I buy the material he publishes.
I wonder if anybody has suggested to Joseph Howell that he should publish "People of the Name" as an ebook?
__________________
"I think some people love spiritual bondage just the way some people love physical bondage. It makes them feel secure. In the end though it is not healthy for the one who is lost over it or the one who is lives under the oppression even if by their own choice"

Titus2woman on AF
F


"We did not wear uniforms. The lady workers dressed in the current fashions of the day, ...silks...satins...jewels or whatever they happened to possess. They were very smartly turned out, so that they made an impressive appearance on the streets where a large part of our work was conducted in the early years.

"It was not until long after, when former Holiness preachers had become part of us, that strict plainness of dress began to be taught.

"Although Entire Sanctification was preached at the beginning of the Movement, it was from a Wesleyan viewpoint, and had in it very little of the later Holiness Movement characteristics. Nothing was ever said about apparel, for everyone was so taken up with the Lord that mode of dress seemingly never occurred to any of us."

Quote from Ethel Goss (widow of 1st UPC Gen Supt. Howard Goss) book "The Winds of God"
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  #140  
Old 06-12-2014, 10:52 PM
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Re: Heretics and Politics by Thomas A. Fudge

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Maybe I should stir up some trouble then somebody would write a book on me!
Pray tell, what are you planning?
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