Jesus....Not God?

[elder_brother]

Great discussion. I have a question along these lines. Currently I am studying this topic after having a few somewhat involved discussions with a Oneness friend.
Multiple times he has contended that the Son is not God. I was surprised that he took such a strong stance. So, how does one reconcile this view with 1 John 2:23? Thanks

[jfrog]

Originally Posted by elder_brother

Great discussion. I have a question along these lines. Currently I am studying this topic after having a few somewhat involved discussions with a Oneness friend.
Multiple times he has contended that the Son is not God. I was surprised that he took such a strong stance. So, how does one reconcile this view with 1 John 2:23? Thanks

The reconciliation comes by realizing 1 John 2:22 comes before 1 John 2:23

1 John 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.

1 John 2:23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.

Verse 23 has nothing to do with denying the Son is not God, it has everything to do with denying that Jesus is not the Christ.

[elder_brother]

Originally Posted by jfrog

The reconciliation comes by realizing 1 John 2:22 comes before 1 John 2:23

1 John 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.

1 John 2:23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.

Verse 23 has nothing to do with denying the Son is not God, it has everything to do with denying that Jesus is not the Christ.

Thanks! Okay, gotcha! So, do most Oneness exponents deny the Son is God?

[jfrog]

Originally Posted by elder_brother

Thanks! Okay, gotcha! So, do most Oneness exponents deny the Son is God?

It's a pretty varied group. I think often they are more unified against the trinity than they are in agreement over exactly how oneness works. Then again trinity believers are in pretty strong disagreement over how exactly the trinity works too.

In short I don't think most oneness believers would deny the Son being God. From times past I recall oneness being presented with a firm stance that there is one God and Jesus is that one God. It would often be said God or Jesus was the Father in creation the Son in redemption and the Holy Ghost in regeneration. It's clear from words like this that Jesus is believed to be God and that God is the Son.

Traditional oneness is not Father only when it comes to God. The Son is also thought of as God. I would say your friend is part of a very small minority that call themselves oneness.

[elder_brother]

Originally Posted by jfrog

It's a pretty varied group. I think often they are more unified against the trinity than they are in agreement over exactly how oneness works. Then again trinity believers are in pretty strong disagreement over how exactly the trinity works too.

In short I don't think most oneness believers would deny the Son being God. From times past I recall oneness being presented with a firm stance that there is one God and Jesus is that one God. It would often be said God or Jesus was the Father in creation the Son in redemption and the Holy Ghost in regeneration. It's clear from words like this that Jesus is believed to be God and that God is the Son.

Traditional oneness is not Father only when it comes to God. The Son is also thought of as God. I would say your friend is part of a very small minority that call themselves oneness.

Yes, there are many splinters & variations within most...at least many of our doctrinal views. It is hard to find two theologians who will explain the Trinity in the exact same way. I wasn't sure if my friend represented the majority of Oneness believers with this view or not, so thanks for the clarification.

I want to assume that most of our (my friend & I) differences is in semantics, and not in doctrinal issues that are essential to the Christian faith. In my perspective, affirming the Deity of the Son of God is affirming the Deity of Jesus which is quite essential to my faith as a Christian. So I'm trying to be cautious but not critical. So, once again, thank you!

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by elder_brother

Great discussion. I have a question along these lines. Currently I am studying this topic after having a few somewhat involved discussions with a Oneness friend.
Multiple times he has contended that the Son is not God. I was surprised that he took such a strong stance. So, how does one reconcile this view with 1 John 2:23? Thanks

The Son is God. The Son is the same Person as God, Same Divine nature as God, united with a Human nature

The Son is God incarnate. That's what Oneness "Officially" teaches.

[elder_brother]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

The Son is God. The Son is the same Person as God, Same Divine nature as God, united with a Human nature

The Son is God incarnate. That's what Oneness "Officially" teaches.

Thank you! Right, as I understand, Oneness differ with Trinitarians in there view of the Godhead & specifically concerning whether or not any distinctions exist between Father, Son & Holy Spirit and how these distinctions might be spoken of. I've had the opportunity to discuss some of these issues with my Oneness friend, as well as some of the "alternative" views found within the Oneness faith. He referred me to several resources & books by Oneness exponents as well.
Teaching that the Son of God, Jesus Christ is the one true living God has been viewed by many people as a teaching that is not able to co-exist with a Monotheistic view of God. It has not been easy for Christianity to maintain both teachings & we still struggle to keep this balance, in my opinion because of our human limitations in understanding an infinite God.
Often times we see people lean towards Polytheism which is quite contrary to the view espoused by the Bible. We see others reject the Son, which in my opinion is also quite contrary to the Christian faith. I only wish to contribute to this discussion. I'm not trying to win a debate...Thanks for the replies.

[shazeep]

well, i tell you, i pretty much think like a little kid anyway--and i have been somewhat struggling to grasp these distinctions for about 30 years now; and deem them irrelevant tempests in teacups. Gauging the number of angels that may dance on the head of a pin. i see absolutely no edification in any of it, with due respect to all. God is the head of Christ tells me all i need to know, i think.

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by elder_brother

Thank you! Right, as I understand, Oneness differ with Trinitarians in there view of the Godhead & specifically concerning whether or not any distinctions exist between Father, Son & Holy Spirit and how these distinctions might be spoken of.

I would assert that ALL real Oneness assert Father, Son and Spirit are distinct. The issue between Trinity and Oneness is HOW.

Oneness says they are distinct manifestations or modes

Trinity says Distinct Persons

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by elder_brother

Thank you! Right, as I understand, Oneness differ with Trinitarians in there view of the Godhead & specifically concerning whether or not any distinctions exist between Father, Son & Holy Spirit and how these distinctions might be spoken of. I've had the opportunity to discuss some of these issues with my Oneness friend, as well as some of the "alternative" views found within the Oneness faith. He referred me to several resources & books by Oneness exponents as well.
Teaching that the Son of God, Jesus Christ is the one true living God has been viewed by many people as a teaching that is not able to co-exist with a Monotheistic view of God. It has not been easy for Christianity to maintain both teachings & we still struggle to keep this balance, in my opinion because of our human limitations in understanding an infinite God.
Often times we see people lean towards Polytheism which is quite contrary to the view espoused by the Bible. We see others reject the Son, which in my opinion is also quite contrary to the Christian faith. I only wish to contribute to this discussion. I'm not trying to win a debate...Thanks for the replies.

BTW every major Oneness Author..and by that I mean those that are peer reviewed and not some self published internet unknown, asserts the Son is God