Court FORCES Baker to make wedding cakes for GAYS

[Fionn mac Cumh]

Originally Posted by aegsm76

In an effort to sum all of this up, we seem to have two viewpoints.

1. A business has no right to refuse service to anyone

2. A business has the right to refuse service to anyone.

I would guess that those in the #1 camp probably do not own a business.

So you should be able to refuse service to someone based on them being gay? This is the America you want to live in?

[jfrog]

Originally Posted by Fionn mac Cumh

So you should be able to refuse service to someone based on them being gay? This is the America you want to live in?

Yes?

[ILG]

Originally Posted by aegsm76 View Post
In an effort to sum all of this up, we seem to have two viewpoints.

1. A business has no right to refuse service to anyone

2. A business has the right to refuse service to anyone.

I would guess that those in the #1 camp probably do not own a business.

Agreed.

[aegsm76]

Originally Posted by Fionn mac Cumh

So you should be able to refuse service to someone based on them being gay? This is the America you want to live in?

The America I used to live in respected the individual's right to their own religious beliefs. Now, the wave of tolerance has result in intolerance. However, the targeting of businesses is totally focused on Christianity. I would really like to see the homosexual community target the Muslim religion and see how that plays out.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by aegsm76

In an effort to sum all of this up, we seem to have two viewpoints.

1. A business has no right to refuse service to anyone

2. A business has the right to refuse service to anyone.

I would guess that those in the #1 camp probably do not own a business.

I think there is a middle ground. If a person is threatening, harassing, belligerent, or not complying with OSHA standards... you see there are reasons to deny services. But to deny services over someone being gay, straight, celibate, hermaphrodite, etc. is a bit creepy to me. Am I going to have to fill out an application explaining my own sexual history and interests? It's invasive, discriminatory, insulting, and... a I'm not sure what's more perverted... a business that is hung up on finding out our bedroom behaviors to determine our value as customers... or a gay couple. I guess the one sure way to deal with it is to vote with your money, boycott, and spread the word that a business is just not cool with serving the general public.

[Aquila]

A Christian business should be a witness... Jesus came to serve and die for a lost humanity. Certainly as a carpenter He made things for Roman citizens. I remember seeing a painting wherein Jesus is depicted as a carpenter... making crosses.

I don't believe the proper Christian attitude should be "death to sinners". Nor, "they are too filthy to love or serve". A genuine Christian, in my opinion, looks past the faults and sins of individuals and loves them and serves them. They live and demonstrate an unconditional love. The people who made the greatest impact on me early in my life were those who loved me... especially when I was undeserving (which was a lot). Joe Public should be able to look at a Christian business and know they will not only treat him with dignity and respect... but that they will also provide the best service or product bar none.

Let's take up our crosses. We don't take up crosses to bash people with them. We take up our crosses to die in service to our Lord and others.

I don't believe there's any place in Heaven for the squeamish or cowardly.

[Aquila]

A quote from Thomas Paine:

"He that would make his own liberty secure, must guard even his enemy from opposition; for if he violates this duty he establishes a precedent that will reach himself." ~ Thomas Paine

Frankly, we like to accuse liberals and politicians of being or doing things that are un-American. Frankly, we're all being un-American if we don't value individual liberty for ourselves... AND OTHERS. If we deny other's their personal liberties... it will only create a social dynamic that will backfire and set precedent to deny us our personal liberties. Therefore, such an approach is a danger to the ideals and values of the Constitution.

If you can't respect individual liberties... pack your bags and move to Russia, because you're a traitor to everything this nation stands for.

[aegsm76]

Originally Posted by Aquila

I think there is a middle ground. If a person is threatening, harassing, belligerent, or not complying with OSHA standards... you see there are reasons to deny services. But to deny services over someone being gay, straight, celibate, hermaphrodite, etc. is a bit creepy to me. Am I going to have to fill out an application explaining my own sexual history and interests? It's invasive, discriminatory, insulting, and... a I'm not sure what's more perverted... a business that is hung up on finding out our bedroom behaviors to determine our value as customers... or a gay couple. I guess the one sure way to deal with it is to vote with your money, boycott, and spread the word that a business is just not cool with serving the general public.

I believe in the middle ground. I have hired, promoted and fired plenty of homosexuals. I have judged them solely on the work and not on their private life. However, they also knew where I stood and I have had plenty of conversations with them regarding our beliefs. There was mutual respect there, without me letting down my beliefs.
But, I have seen the world slip from tolerance, to acceptance and now to join us. If you do not agree with this lifestyle, you now have a target on your back with the aggressive homosexual lobby.

[aegsm76]

Originally Posted by Aquila

A Christian business should be a witness... Jesus came to serve and die for a lost humanity. Certainly as a carpenter He made things for Roman citizens. I remember seeing a painting wherein Jesus is depicted as a carpenter... making crosses.

I don't believe the proper Christian attitude should be "death to sinners". Nor, "they are too filthy to love or serve". A genuine Christian, in my opinion, looks past the faults and sins of individuals and loves them and serves them. They live and demonstrate an unconditional love. The people who made the greatest impact on me early in my life were those who loved me... especially when I was undeserving (which was a lot). Joe Public should be able to look at a Christian business and know they will not only treat him with dignity and respect... but that they will also provide the best service or product bar none.

Let's take up our crosses. We don't take up crosses to bash people with them. We take up our crosses to die in service to our Lord and others.

I don't believe there's any place in Heaven for the squeamish or cowardly.

Sometimes loving someone means telling them things that they do not want to hear.

[aegsm76]

Originally Posted by Aquila

A quote from Thomas Paine:

"He that would make his own liberty secure, must guard even his enemy from opposition; for if he violates this duty he establishes a precedent that will reach himself." ~ Thomas Paine

Frankly, we like to accuse liberals and politicians of being or doing things that are un-American. Frankly, we're all being un-American if we don't value individual liberty for ourselves... AND OTHERS. If we deny other's their personal liberties... it will only create a social dynamic that will backfire and set precedent to deny us our personal liberties. Therefore, such an approach is a danger to the ideals and values of the Constitution.

If you can't respect individual liberties... pack your bags and move to Russia, because you're a traitor to everything this nation stands for.

So, where is the individual liberty for the baker who was told to bake the cake or be fined?
Where will the individual liberty be for the pastor who is forced to marry a homosexual couple?
Where will the individual liberty be for the company who is forced to provide insurance that includes abortion services?
Where will the individual liberty be for the university that is forced to provide insurance that includes contraceptive services?

We have long valued individual liberty in this nation. So much so that a pharmacist who is against abortion does not have to provide drugs that enable abortion.
Now the tide has turned from individual liberty to individual liberty that the government agrees with.
If the government disagrees with your individual liberty, they will work to take it away.