Heretics and Politics by Thomas A. Fudge

[shazeep]

Originally Posted by kclee4jc

I see a gahtering. In my opinion there is more unity among holiness minded Apostolics in the last couple years. Brethren who were divided by organizationl boundaries are enjoying fellowship.

Of course there are those who are going liberal and falling away too!

well, this is great to hear! Because it is you all who might be termed If my people, who are called by my name...and we could sure use some healing about now. Harbingers don't lie.

[Reader]

Originally Posted by AR Pastor

Don't fellowship libs. Don't mistreat them but don't go to their meetings or have them preach here.

You actually do since you are affiliated with the UPC and there are libs in that group. You may not attend some of their churches, but you are in fellowship with them. Why don't you just hook up with the WPF since you appear to be much more aligned with them in your thinking?

Originally Posted by kclee4jc

My pastor is currently licensed UPC but we have very little fellowship with them. We fellowship WPF, AMF, and GIBs. Our church is independent.

If your pastor holds license with the UPC, the UPC counts the church as one of theirs. UPC Manual. In fact, they are supposed to have a sign on the church, indicating they are UPC.

Why does he remain with a group where he won't fellowship with the people? This makes no sense to me.

If that is 100% true it gives alot of credence to the view that the congregations of saved at faith pastors likely believed the other way and so the pastor intentionally didn't ever mention when salvation occurred?

Read Fudge's book. There were a number who did not keep their views secret and were looked down upon for it. C.H. Yadon was one. The entire Northwest was infiltrated by others because they were known to be "weak on the message."

Originally Posted by RunningOnFaith

I have read that many joined the PAW around the time of WWI because the organization had the draft exemption. I have never read this concerning the PAJC. Although there were peacetime drafts, it would not make sense for me for this to be a determining factor for the PAJC to merge--WWII had ended months prior to the merger,

But was the draft yet in effect? If the answer was yes, I could still see it as a factor. There was after war things to take care of and they may have been uneasy as to if peace would last. Just a thought on it.

Originally Posted by kclee4jc

I see a gahtering. In my opinion there is more unity among holiness minded Apostolics in the last couple years. Brethren who were divided by organizationl boundaries are enjoying fellowship.

Probably out of necessity since they were essentially cut off from thousands of UPC people. When one's ranks become smaller, one sometimes has to reach out beyond their own group for fellowship. Thus it may appear to be stronger and more teaching holiness stronger because that is all they now see.

[AR Pastor]

Originally Posted by Reader

You actually do since you are affiliated with the UPC and there are libs in that group. You may not attend some of their churches, but you are in fellowship with them. Why don't you just hook up with the WPF since you appear to be much more aligned with them in your thinking?



If your pastor holds license with the UPC, the UPC counts the church as one of theirs. UPC Manual. In fact, they are supposed to have a sign on the church, indicating they are UPC.

Why does he remain with a group where he won't fellowship with the people? This makes no sense to me.



Read Fudge's book. There were a number who did not keep their views secret and were looked down upon for it. C.H. Yadon was one. The entire Northwest was infiltrated by others because they were known to be "weak on the message."



But was the draft yet in effect? If the answer was yes, I could still see it as a factor. There was after war things to take care of and they may have been uneasy as to if peace would last. Just a thought on it.



Probably out of necessity since they were essentially cut off from thousands of UPC people. When one's ranks become smaller, one sometimes has to reach out beyond their own group for fellowship. Thus it may appear to be stronger and more teaching holiness stronger because that is all they now see.

Just because I am UPC does not mean I fellowship them all.

If you never see each other then what fellowship do you have?

And for me when I say fellowship. I mean I don't run with them. I don't go to their meetings or preach for them and they don't preach for me.

Why leave the UPC I have many friends in the org. I also have many friends that are WPF or ind. I can fellowship like minded men without belonging to their org.

[Reader]

You have fellowship since you choose to affiliate with the organization, even though you apparently believe most in it are not worthy of your fellowship. You choose to hold license there, choose to regularly sign their affirmation, and choose to abide by their Manual.

I understand you are mainly looking at fellowship as in person activities, but I wanted to point out that you yet fellowship with the group.

Why leave? Because you apparently believe they are weak in holiness standards, enough so that you would not have in person church fellowship with the majority of them. And since you believe these to be a deal breaker, and you say you won't push your beliefs so as to cause division (you agree to do that in order to become a minister), I would think you would be better suited in a place such as the WPF. The way you have described it, it appears you do cause division by refusing to fellowship at churches where the pastors hold the exact same license as you.

I guess I view it similar to how you shared that it was a mistake to have the merger that formed the UPC. Some of your holiness views are in contrast to UPC written policy, thus not making it a good merge.

[AR Pastor]

Originally Posted by Reader

You have fellowship since you choose to affiliate with the organization, even though you apparently believe most in it are not worthy of your fellowship. You choose to hold license there, choose to regularly sign their affirmation, and choose to abide by their Manual.

I understand you are mainly looking at fellowship as in person activities, but I wanted to point out that you yet fellowship with the group.

Why leave? Because you apparently believe they are weak in holiness standards, enough so that you would not have in person church fellowship with the majority of them. And since you believe these to be a deal breaker, and you say you won't push your beliefs so as to cause division (you agree to do that in order to become a minister), I would think you would be better suited in a place such as the WPF. The way you have described it, it appears you do cause division by refusing to fellowship at churches where the pastors hold the exact same license as you.

I guess I view it similar to how you shared that it was a mistake to have the merger that formed the UPC. Some of your holiness views are in contrast to UPC written policy, thus not making it a good merge.

You are putting words in my mouth. I did not say with the majority. I don't believe that the case at all.

But whatever you believe what you like.

I know very few in the UPC who fellowship with everyone.

And NO just having a card does not mean that we are all in fellowship with each other..

[Reader]

Originally Posted by AR Pastor

You are putting words in my mouth. I did not say with the majority. I don't believe that the case at all.

I apologize if I assumed wrong. I got that impression from things you have posted, such as "My fellowship in the UPC are with conservative churches." A good number of the conservative churches left when the TV resolution was passed (at least the more conservative).

And NO just having a card does not mean that we are all in fellowship with each other..

It is a ministerial fellowship, is it not? Have you not agreed to be part of the fellowship by obtaining license?

[returnman]

Originally Posted by Sabby

Yes, this was Phil. This is in the context of the Culture of the times.
A question was asked earlier on this thread if the acrimony between the district and the school existed before Don Fisher arrived. Yes, there absolutely was.
If I am not mistaken CLC has its own church(?). CBC didn't have that luxury, although in '78 or '79 (can't remember the year) the school made a proposal to the Portland area pastors to allow any students attending their churches to be able to prioritize school functions OVER local church functions. The PDX area pastors by this time were claiming ownership ( which included staffing of S.S. and financial $upport) of students in their churches. The pastors rejected the proposal OUTRIGHT. These things happened with Gary Geason in Oregon City, Bill Davies in McMinnville, B.A. King in Beaverton, Langley in Hillsboro, Barlow in St Helens, Phil in the church at Killingsworth and Paul in St John's just off Lombard Street. I don't know if they rejected the proposal over doctrinal "purity", needing control, or both.
It only weakened the structural integrity of the school and exascerbated the bad vibe between the school and local area pastors. It seemed that the pastors opposed any promotional activity of the school UNLESS it directly benefited their church.

My experience and background in later years incline me to believe this wholeheartedly.

[returnman]

Originally Posted by RunningOnFaith

True, Fudge does not go easy on Fisher in the last chapter. Besides the homosexuality issue, it was disturbing that Fisher had such a poor relationship with his wife and daughters. Fudge records a close member of Fishers family felt no grief whatsoever on account of the poor state of their relationship.

On the other hand, as Yadon points out-- you have to look at the impact of a mans entire life. Because he made some terrible choices does not mean that everything he ever did was worthless. It does not mean that everything he ever thought was destructive, I personally thought there was several intriguing ideas in the sermon "evangelism to the subconscious". His choices later in his life do not make wrong his ideas that students should interact and understand more than what Fudge calls "Denominational Positivism". There is a photo of a letter that Bro. Urshan sent Fisher while he was dying that note his impact on the UPC and that he was praying for his recovery. Such a letter represents compassion and concern that Christian people ought to be known for.

Don Fisher's dad was one of the kindest people I ever knew. My guess would be the he held a PCI view and was labeled "weak on the message". If wrong on that....correct me.

[Sabby]

Originally Posted by returnman

Don Fisher's dad was one of the kindest people I ever knew. My guess would be the he held a PCI view and was labeled "weak on the message". If wrong on that....correct me.

Harry had a gentle spirit.

There are some on this thread making the same mistakes that the Portland area pastors made by making judgments based upon incomplete information and assumptions. I would suggest before broad-brushing anyone with a PCI view that you meet and get to know them personally without hearsay filters getting in the way.

There's others that wonder out-loud why the merger happened in the first place. There was a sincere desire on the behalf of both Jesus' name orgs to grow the kingdom. No one thought that the "children" would forget the will of the fathers (Loren Yadon). I hadn't thought about the draft being a motivator to merge, but I can't resource anything that would make it more than conjecture.

Someone else asked why they didn't just "get together" and form their own group. They joined Global, the International Ministerial Association, Bethel or stayed independent. Some of the larger independents were strong and large enough to credential their own.
So "WHY" didn't they form their own group? The strong spirit of disunity led the "guardians" of the "faith" to drive the "heretics" from their midst. The children of the "guardians" live on today. They claim to see, yet their blindness remains. The spirit of disunity, accusation, hearsay, slander, false accusations... lives on.
I can tell you from personal experience that slanderous attacks occur when someone perceived as "weak on the message" won't move on.

[returnman]

Originally Posted by Sabby

Harry had a gentle spirit.

There are some on this thread making the same mistakes that the Portland area pastors made by making judgments based upon incomplete information and assumptions. I would suggest before broad-brushing anyone with a PCI view that you meet and get to know them personally without hearsay filters getting in the way.

There's others that wonder out-loud why the merger happened in the first place. There was a sincere desire on the behalf of both Jesus' name orgs to grow the kingdom. No one thought that the "children" would forget the will of the fathers (Loren Yadon). I hadn't thought about the draft being a motivator to merge, but I can't resource anything that would make it more than conjecture.

Someone else asked why they didn't just "get together" and form their own group. They joined Global, the International Ministerial Association, Bethel or stayed independent. Some of the larger independents were strong and large enough to credential their own.
So "WHY" didn't they form their own group? The strong spirit of disunity led the "guardians" of the "faith" to drive the "heretics" from their midst. The children of the "guardians" live on today. They claim to see, yet their blindness remains. The spirit of disunity, accusation, hearsay, slander, false accusations... lives on.
I can tell you from personal experience that slanderous attacks occur when someone perceived as "weak on the message" won't move on.

Hope you didn't think I was being critical of Bro. Fisher....just the opposite. I think his gentleness (not weak) prefaced my opinion of his doctrinal views which was error on my part. We have talked a lot in private Sabby.