Truth and Deception

[shazeep]

i'd like to agree with you, but i think that practically speaking, tares may spring up even in a devout believer's walk, and even evil people may do right. I can see as far as these wheat and tares as separate individuals being "models," but i wonder if thinking of oneself as wheat may not just provide a blind for many: "I'm 'saved,' and not in overt sin at the moment, so no further examination is necessary," kinda thing--when Christians in the West, at least, are almost wholly deceived, imo. Dunno.

Christ would def guide one into all truth--if they are seeking.

[votivesoul]

One must understand that a tare is a completely different species of plant, that nonetheless, looks exactly like a stalk of wheat, especially before full maturity.

Hence the danger. Children of the devil often look very much like children of God, if and when the children of God yet remain immature and not fully formed into the image of Christ.

This speaks to many of the so-called Christian world who are Christian only in name, but not in life and actions. One must truly be like Christ before he or she can prove they are nothing more than a tare.

[KeptByTheWord]

Originally Posted by votivesoul

The wheat and tares idea as presented by the Lord in Scripture doesn't allow for the view that one individual person can be both at the same time.

The stalk of wheat is a child of God and His Kingdom. The tare is a child of Satan and is of his kingdom.

A person cannot be both at the same time.

1 John 3:4-10,

One must either be God's or not God's (i.e. they are of their father the devil). It is a mutually exclusive proposition.

The apostles doctrine was to follow, believe on, and emulate Jesus Christ. They did all in the name of Jesus. So, to follow Jesus, is to follow truth.

The traditional understanding of the wheat and the tares certainly is that the believer, and the unbeliever will dwell together, and at the appointed time will be separated.

The tares and wheat scenario I presented is something to consider, but not something that has to be "right or wrong."

Originally Posted by votivesoul

What can be said, however, is that we have a law of sin in us which has corrupted our flesh. Our flesh and the Holy Spirit of God are at war with each other, what the Bible calls enmity (Romans 8:7)

Galatians 5:16-17,

So, instead of saying that all believers in Messiah Jesus have wheat and tares in them, it would be more accurate to say that all believers in Messiah Jesus have a battle raging between their flesh and the Spirit, only and insomuch as the individual believer is unwilling to crucify their flesh.

But and if the believer will allow the Holy Spirit to transform and renew their mind, then the power of sin in their flesh can be destroyed. And once destroyed, the believer is free to be led into all truth.

My question to you is, do you believe that you really have ALL truth? There is not one bit of unbelief, or untruth present in you?

Where you and I differ, I think, is this. I believe that we can be led into all truth as we are following Jesus, but it is a purifying process led by suffering, with much learning about ourselves, and about the Lord, and even Paul said "I press towards the mark"... he wasn't speaking of attaining yet, but he was speaking of a purifying process that even he was constantly going through, because of his flesh.

This is why there is so much hurt and confusion among believers. Because when a believer begins to follow Jesus, he thinks "I now have all truth", but in reality, has just begun the journey TOWARDS all truth. As we follow Jesus, who is the truth, the life and the way, then we can begin to pull off the things in our flesh that hinder us from knowing Him more. The purifying fire of suffering, tests, temptations and difficulties come to us so we can know the wickedness within our own heart and flesh, and with the power of the spirit, remove those things, and continue walking, following Jesus, towards all truth.

What I see has hurt so many believers, is that they have found a PIECE of truth, for example, doing all in Jesus name. When they receive that piece of truth, they think they have arrived, and perhaps there is no more to know about Jesus, and they loudly proclaim, and wave the banner high that they have all truth, because they do all in Jesus name. But.... that is just a piece of the truth of Christ. There is so much more that He has to teach us, and for us to understand. So, believers limit themselves when they find a bit of doctrine, dogma, or teaching and content themselves to stay there, thinking they have arrived.

I am contending for the fact that all this arguing about who is more apostolic, or more holier than the other, or who has the right understanding about the godhead, etc. is something we do because we want to believe that we have ALL THE TRUTH. But, in reality, how can we?

How can we know and understand all there is to know about the Almighty God and Creator, with worlds, and dimensions, and universes far beyond the one we live in, with our limited knowledge, and understanding of physics, and chemistry, biology, and all the sciences?

I think it is far better to say, I am following Jesus, and HE IS TRUTH, and understand that I am a pilgrim and a stranger, who does not know it all, but I am following the ONE who does.

If all believers were truly were followers of Jesus, instead of followers of this or that doctrine, perhaps all the fighting, bickering, slinging rocks back and forth between believers wouldn't have to be so.

Just my thoughts.

[KeptByTheWord]

Originally Posted by votivesoul

One must understand that a tare is a completely different species of plant, that nonetheless, looks exactly like a stalk of wheat, especially before full maturity.

Hence the danger. Children of the devil often look very much like children of God, if and when the children of God yet remain immature and not fully formed into the image of Christ.

This speaks to many of the so-called Christian world who are Christian only in name, but not in life and actions. One must truly be like Christ before he or she can prove they are nothing more than a tare.

What about this scenario? What if the wheat is the believer, and the tares are (for example) "false doctrine"? Could a believer allow false doctrine in his life, and at the appointed time, the Lord separates the believer from his false doctrine?

You see, parables are like onions, if I may compare the two. There are many layers of meanings that can come forth out of just one simple parable, depending on how creative you want to get.

If you have a message you want to get across, you can find a parable to do so, regardless of whether that was the original intended meaning of the parable or not.

So, I am fine with your definition of what the parable of the tares and the wheat mean to you. But, could you also see that there are other meanings as well, perhaps not so easily visible?

[KeptByTheWord]

And I might add this... I believe that contending for the truth as we follow Jesus will involve heart searching, serious discussion, prayer, and interaction with other believers, much as iron sharpeneth iron. It is in discussions like this, that the things I may think to be true, can be proven to not be so, and as I follow Christ, I can allow doctrines, beliefs, standards, ideas, etc., to fall off, and be replaced with ones that have gone through the fire, and become the gold standard.

So, it is in places like AFF that we can discuss these things, and let iron sharpen iron.

The only thing that I believe, is wrong, and un-Christ like, is to lash out at someone else and attack their character because they don't believe like I do. We should, as fellow believers, be able to discuss our differences without acting like children, and seeking to hurt and destroy one another.

I am glad that so far this particular thread has not turned into a mud slinging, rock throwing party, and that we can have discussion without character assassination.

I try to remember this old adage:

Truth spoken without love is brutality.
Love spoken without truth is hypocrisy.

[shazeep]

Great posts, vs, kbtw. we see in black and white, and live shades of grey. We are a nation of baby Christians, who rarely advance to the meat of the Word, imo. I am convinced that the more strongly one identifies with a particular religion or sect, whatever it may be, the less spiritual advancement has occurred. And refusal to put ones most basic premises through the fire, and insisting on a blind faith in them is not what God had in mind, imo.

I have had some great insight into Scripture recently, by taking everything perceived as negative and applying it to myself, and taking the positive and applying it to everyone else; regardless of any known shortcomings of theirs. This does not mean throwing pearls before swine, of course, but i apply this even to homeless strangers. Amazing results.

[jediwill83]

Originally Posted by KeptByTheWord

And I might add this... I believe that contending for the truth as we follow Jesus will involve heart searching, serious discussion, prayer, and interaction with other believers, much as iron sharpeneth iron. It is in discussions like this, that the things I may think to be true, can be proven to not be so, and as I follow Christ, I can allow doctrines, beliefs, standards, ideas, etc., to fall off, and be replaced with ones that have gone through the fire, and become the gold standard.

So, it is in places like AFF that we can discuss these things, and let iron sharpen iron.

The only thing that I believe, is wrong, and un-Christ like, is to lash out at someone else and attack their character because they don't believe like I do. We should, as fellow believers, be able to discuss our differences without acting like children, and seeking to hurt and destroy one another.

I am glad that so far this particular thread has not turned into a mud slinging, rock throwing party, and that we can have discussion without character assassination.

I try to remember this old adage:

Truth spoken without love is brutality.
Love spoken without truth is hypocrisy.

Someone mentioned recently that for iron to sharpen iron there has to be some friction...it has to go against the grain.

[shazeep]

ya, prolly some sparks even?

[KeptByTheWord]

Originally Posted by jediwill83

Someone mentioned recently that for iron to sharpen iron there has to be some friction...it has to go against the grain.

Oh yes, sparks will fly, with iron, against iron... but the purpose served is to maintain and keep a friendship, not lose it, or destroy it.

Prov. 27:17 "Iron sharpeneth iron; so a man sharpeneth the countenance of his friend."

[KeptByTheWord]

Originally Posted by shazeep

Great posts, vs, kbtw. we see in black and white, and live shades of grey. We are a nation of baby Christians, who rarely advance to the meat of the Word, imo. I am convinced that the more strongly one identifies with a particular religion or sect, whatever it may be, the less spiritual advancement has occurred. And refusal to put ones most basic premises through the fire, and insisting on a blind faith in them is not what God had in mind, imo.

I have had some great insight into Scripture recently, by taking everything perceived as negative and applying it to myself, and taking the positive and applying it to everyone else; regardless of any known shortcomings of theirs. This does not mean throwing pearls before swine, of course, but i apply this even to homeless strangers. Amazing results.

Yes, I am coming to see this more and more. That when we comfort ourselves with the fact that we have all the truth there is to have, that our doctrine is the only correct one, and that our particular group or organization is the only one "going to heaven", then we have veered off from following Jesus, to following that belief, doctrine, or whatever.

It can be a lonely place to find yourself with no particular place to "call home" here on this earth, yet this is exactly the life that Jesus lived in his short time on this earth, and even his disciples as they followed in his footsteps, found themselves strangers, and pilgrims, facing tremendous persecution, and difficulties, and death.

The part that hinders most believers is coming to the understanding that Jesus came as the Suffering Servant, and what it means to truly follow Christ. It is tough to comprehend that following Jesus means accepting that suffering is part of the salvational plan. I am struggling to come to grips with the fact that suffering is necessary, even so much that maybe my salvation depends upon it. Still wrestling with that understanding myself, but it is far too plain in the NT to simply explain it away.