Truth and Deception

[shazeep]

Originally Posted by KeptByTheWord

Yes, I am coming to see this more and more. That when we comfort ourselves with the fact that we have all the truth there is to have, that our doctrine is the only correct one, and that our particular group or organization is the only one "going to heaven", then we have veered off from following Jesus, to following that belief, doctrine, or whatever.

It can be a lonely place to find yourself with no particular place to "call home" here on this earth, yet this is exactly the life that Jesus lived in his short time on this earth, and even his disciples as they followed in his footsteps, found themselves strangers, and pilgrims, facing tremendous persecution, and difficulties, and death.

The part that hinders most believers is coming to the understanding that Jesus came as the Suffering Servant, and what it means to truly follow Christ. It is tough to comprehend that following Jesus means accepting that suffering is part of the salvational plan. I am struggling to come to grips with the fact that suffering is necessary, even so much that maybe my salvation depends upon it. Still wrestling with that understanding myself, but it is far too plain in the NT to simply explain it away.

Nice--i see it like this: it is only 'natural' to follow the path of least resistance; and in a first-world country, any number of people out to make a profit are only too willing to relieve us of our various burdens. Therefore, we get a house--with a mortgage, usually--to relieve us of the burden of where to sleep at night. We get insurance on the house. We get a job--rather than pursuing a passion--to pay for the house; and we get a car to get to the job, and insurance on the car...little realizing that these all insulate us from God in one way or another--and incur other, hidden costs as well. (People have to die so that you can buy gas). Then we of course need a wardrobe, and all of the accoutrements of the above--which we of course get very cheaply, without considering that virtual slaves make all that stuff.

Then, even a seeker may wonder why God seems so far away, and never stops to think that they got insurance because they don't trust God, in a sense at least. Of course, in this model, the insurance is 'required.' ok

[votivesoul]

I haven't brought myself or where I am at into this post because it's immaterial to the conversation.

What is relevant was that the original post had, in first person, the Lord Jesus speaking certain things that don't agree with His already stated work in the Scriptures. That is where I draw the line.

Jesus plainly and without hesitation explained exactly what the parable of the wheat and the tares meant. He didn't leave it open for discussion.

Tares are children of the devil, sown into the world by the enemy in order to cause confusion and ruination of the harvest. That is a truth proposition given by the Lord. He didn't say they were anything else. We can wonder and guess at and reinterpret to our hearts desire, but it doesn't change what the Lord said.

And so, when anyone comes and say that the Lord, in first person has suddenly redefined His own parable and the meaning of it into something else, any student of Scripture has an obligation to the Lord they serve to question that. Jesus said His words will never pass away.

We can't just go around re-interpreting His words as we see fit, then claim He was the One doing the re-interpreting. All that does is create doubt and uncertainty that the will and mind of Christ is actually knowable.

We can question our previously held ideas, assumptions, and understandings, and in time, come to different conclusions. This is well and good. But we can't come to new conclusions because we have changed the very meaning and intent of the Scriptures to suit our previously held ideas, assumptions, and understandings. That is dangerous territory. That is adding to or taking away from the Word.

We ought not to go there but at our spiritual peril. Had the original post presented the concepts given as thoughts and questions regarding the parable of the wheat and the tares, then okay, fine.

But that is not how it was presented. It was presented as though the Lord was speaking in first person a new and different interpretation of His own parable, in contrast to how He already defined it in the Word. That is a BIG deal. I hope we can see that.

Because if what was written in the first post is not accurate, then it becomes a false witness against the Lord of lords, because it presumes to tell the world that He said something He didn't actually say.

We must not "go there", as the saying goes.

[votivesoul]

Originally Posted by KeptByTheWord

What about this scenario? What if the wheat is the believer, and the tares are (for example) "false doctrine"? Could a believer allow false doctrine in his life, and at the appointed time, the Lord separates the believer from his false doctrine?

I refer you back to the Scriptures and what Jesus said the tare in the parable represents. Why isn't that sufficient? Did Jesus not know the meaning of His own parable?

You see, parables are like onions, if I may compare the two. There are many layers of meanings that can come forth out of just one simple parable, depending on how creative you want to get.

Sis, that's how false doctrine is created. The Bible does warn against damnable heresies. When we decide that we have the right and even authority to get "creative" with the Word of God, you end up with a Thomas Jefferson Bible, or worse.

If you have a message you want to get across, you can find a parable to do so, regardless of whether that was the original intended meaning of the parable or not.

But I'm not the one trying to create a parable to teach a principle of the Kingdom of God. It was the Christ who spoke the parable. Change and rearrange the given meaning and interpretation and you're not messing with me or my words. You are messing with Him and His Words.

So, I am fine with your definition of what the parable of the tares and the wheat mean to you. But, could you also see that there are other meanings as well, perhaps not so easily visible?

This isn't about what it means to me. It is about what Jesus said the parable means.

No one can honestly and properly follow the Lord Jesus if they intend on changing what He said and re-envisioning and re-interpreting the very simple and basic things He has already, for all time and into eternity, said.

You want to stand in the fire? You want to take up the cross and die, following Jesus wherever the Spirit leads? Awesome. Me, too.

But the first thing that's going to get burned is the hay, wood, and straw being placed on the foundation of His teachings. You can't follow Him if you aren't taking Him at His Word.

It's like saying this: "I know Jesus said X, but I think He meant Y, so I'm going to go with that and see where it takes me".

It will take you somewhere, but it won't take you to Jesus. It will only get you as far as you're willing to walk in your flesh.

No, no one has ALL TRUTH as of this moment. But that's not the issue. The issue is the unwillingness to agree that the things the Lord Jesus said, and the way He interpreted those things for us, are even TRUTH at all.

Jesus says "I am the door of the sheep", and we respond "I was praying about John 10:7 and Jesus said to me "________" (whatever, fill in the blank).

I am telling you, if that blank above that you fill in is anything beside "I am the door of the sheep" you are flat out wrong and out of the will of God and so, are bearing false witness against the Lord.

I can't speak for anyone else. But I fear God too much to do something like that.

[KeptByTheWord]

Votivesoul:

Here is the parable of the tares and the wheat:

Matt. 13:24-30
24 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:
25 But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.
26 But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.
27 So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?
28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?
29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.
30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

... and then Jesus explaining the parable:

36 Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field.
37 He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;
38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

I would like you to notice and comment on the bolded part "and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity."

This is a two-part equation here... 1) all things that offend, and 2) them which do iniquity.

Now do you see how this parable could go a little deeper than just a first passing glance?

[shazeep]

yyyup! and that isn't even the all of it--you then have to get over the inflated head from that new knowledge, because i still prolly have not gotten everything there is, every valid reflection, from said parable.

Originally Posted by votivesoul

I refer you back to the Scriptures and what Jesus said the tare in the parable represents. Why isn't that sufficient? Did Jesus not know the meaning of His own parable?



Sis, that's how false doctrine is created. The Bible does warn against damnable heresies. When we decide that we have the right and even authority to get "creative" with the Word of God, you end up with a Thomas Jefferson Bible, or worse.



But I'm not the one trying to create a parable to teach a principle of the Kingdom of God. It was the Christ who spoke the parable. Change and rearrange the given meaning and interpretation and you're not messing with me or my words. You are messing with Him and His Words.



This isn't about what it means to me. It is about what Jesus said the parable means.

No one can honestly and properly follow the Lord Jesus if they intend on changing what He said and re-envisioning and re-interpreting the very simple and basic things He has already, for all time and into eternity, said.

You want to stand in the fire? You want to take up the cross and die, following Jesus wherever the Spirit leads? Awesome. Me, too.

But the first thing that's going to get burned is the hay, wood, and straw being placed on the foundation of His teachings. You can't follow Him if you aren't taking Him at His Word.

It's like saying this: "I know Jesus said X, but I think He meant Y, so I'm going to go with that and see where it takes me".

It will take you somewhere, but it won't take you to Jesus. It will only get you as far as you're willing to walk in your flesh.

No, no one has ALL TRUTH as of this moment. But that's not the issue. The issue is the unwillingness to agree that the things the Lord Jesus said, and the way He interpreted those things for us, are even TRUTH at all.

Jesus says "I am the door of the sheep", and we respond "I was praying about John 10:7 and Jesus said to me "________" (whatever, fill in the blank).

I am telling you, if that blank above that you fill in is anything beside "I am the door of the sheep" you are flat out wrong and out of the will of God and so, are bearing false witness against the Lord.

I can't speak for anyone else. But I fear God too much to do something like that.

:gag me, wadr

[shazeep]

Originally Posted by votivesoul

This isn't about what it means to me. It is about what Jesus said the parable means.

No one can honestly and properly follow the Lord Jesus if they intend on changing what He said and re-envisioning and re-interpreting the very simple and basic things He has already, for all time and into eternity, said.

Seriously? Yikes.
You pore over the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; yet they speak about Me.
i can't speak for anyone else, but i love God too much to do something like that...

[KeptByTheWord]

In a sense, my post about how we judge people so easily, and throw them under the bus, because they see something differently than we do, is being illustrated as we speak. Because a concept was brought to me in a different format or truth than what you are used to... you are then willing to not consider anything else that was said, but conveniently ignore all that was written, simply because it doesn't jive with your particular doctrine or dogma.

And I understand that, even expected it, and knew it would happen. That's okay.

But again... the entire message of my post you have chosen to disregard, simply because you have chosen to judge the interpretation of the parable as false, and therefore conclude that nothing else that was said is worthy to be considered. See what I mean?

[shazeep]

[shazeep]

Light is truly a powerful weapon, KBTW, and darkness cannot withstand it!

[n david]

Originally Posted by KeptByTheWord

Votivesoul:

Here is the parable of the tares and the wheat:

Matt. 13:24-30
24 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:
25 But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.
26 But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.
27 So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?
28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?
29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.
30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

... and then Jesus explaining the parable:

36 Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field.
37 He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;
38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

I would like you to notice and comment on the bolded part "and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity."

This is a two-part equation here... 1) all things that offend, and 2) them which do iniquity.

Now do you see how this parable could go a little deeper than just a first passing glance?

Interesting how you ignore the part in bold, and try to change the meaning of the text because it says "gather out of his kingdom." It does not mean God allows wheat and tares together in one person. It most clearly says that the tares are the children of the wicked one and the good seed (wheat) are the children of God. Surely you're not suggesting that God is wicked? Because that's exactly what you'd have to believe if you say wheat and tares are together in the life of a believer.