Water/Spirit Doctrine Destroyed Beautifully

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by jfrog

Sean agrees with prax an prax agrees with Sean. Being born again is optional. You don't have to so it. However if u want to go to heaven... It is a requirement for that

Sean's comment, here, suggests that "except" in the Greek is defined as "optional". That is what, I believe, Prax was addressing.

Originally Posted by Sean

[COLOR="Red"]The word "except" is used in the passage 2 times. Verse 5 for both water and Spirit, meaning "unless", which makes Spirit optional.

Notice that I agree with what Sean is trying to imply, while agreeing with the technicality of definition concerning the word "except" that Prax offered.

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

If you are saying, which you are, a person has a choice, that is true. But, technically, the word "except" implies "exclusion".

[Sean]

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

Jesus is saying that "except/if not under the circumstances", you cannot "see/know" the kingdom of God.

If you are saying, which you are, a person has a choice, that is true. But, technically, the word "except" implies "exclusion".

Thats what I am saying there, Jesus was not telling Nicodemus he was already "water born", which in these guys doctrine, make it(water birth) NOT an option.
The entire passage is what I was seeing, lead off by the word "except". The passage offers a a way into the Kingdom of God, if(optional, you may or may not want to...) a man is born again of water.....That is what I was implying....

I was seeing the whole passage as optional in this regard, thanks for pointing out the
misunderstanding.

Again, sorry about the misunderstanding. And thanks Prax

[jfrog]

Originally Posted by Abiding Now

At last!

Don't get ur hopes up.. I was speaking for sean

[Abiding Now]

Originally Posted by jfrog

Don't get ur hopes up.. I was speaking for sean

Awww what a disappointment.

[Originalist]

Again I say, the necessity of water baptism as a step towards the new birth does not depend on the water/Spirit interpretation of John 3:5 being accurate. The doctrine of baptism for the remission of sins stands on its own scripturally without John 3:5.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Chateau d'If

Taken from the following site:

http://www.bereanresearchinstitute.c...spel_True.html

"1. The United Pentecostal Church International (UPCI) adds to the simplicity of the Gospel of Salvation that is taught by Jesus Christ - and that is in Jesus Christ (II Cor 11:2-4) - by teaching that, to be born again, a person must do certain physical acts, namely:
a. Be baptized in water (which they claim is burial in Christ), and

b. Speak in tongues (which they claim is proof of resurrection in the Spirit)

This is ridiculous! No one preaches physical act of speaking in tongues CAUSES salvation. Speaking in tongues is evidence of the Spirit already in a person. It's not the speaking in tongues that we want in order to be saved. It's the SPIRIT IN US. The evidence of a thing is not the the thing! And The SPIRIT is the goal, not its evidence. That write-up is simply dishonest!

And baptism is not categorized as a WORK for salvation. When the bible talks about works for salvation it is talking about efforts to make ourselves righteous, not all actions in and of themselves. If baptism is regarded as a work then so must the CHOICE to accept salvation be a work of the mind, and therefore a WORK, nonetheless, for salvation.

But baptism is the opposite of works to obtain righteousness. It is the BURYING and DEATH of all hopes of self doing anything to save self! We're good for nothing, as far as our works are concerned to save ourselves, so much so as to deserve death!

To write what this guy said about baptism and tongues is absolutely dishonest as well as wrong.

[Originalist]

Originally Posted by mfblume

This is ridiculous! No one preaches physical act of speaking in tongues CAUSES salvation. Speaking in tongues is evidence of the Spirit already in a person. It's not the speaking in tongues that we want in order to be saved. It's the SPIRIT IN US. The evidence of a thing is not the the thing! And The SPIRIT is the goal, not its evidence. That write-up is simply dishonest!

And baptism is not categorized as a WORK for salvation. When the bible talks about works for salvation it is talking about efforts to make ourselves righteous, not all actions in and of themselves. If baptism is regarded as a work then so must the CHOICE to accept salvation be a work of the mind, and therefore a WORK, nonetheless, for salvation.

But baptism is the opposite of works to obtain righteousness. It is the BURYING and DEATH of all hopes of self doing anything to save self! We're good for nothing, as far as our works are concerned to save ourselves, so much so as to deserve death!

To write what this guy said about baptism and tongues is absolutely dishonest as well as wrong.

Amen!!

[Abiding Now]

Originally Posted by mfblume

This is ridiculous! No one preaches physical act of speaking in tongues CAUSES salvation. Speaking in tongues is evidence of the Spirit already in a person. It's not the speaking in tongues that we want in order to be saved. It's the SPIRIT IN US. The evidence of a thing is not the the thing! And The SPIRIT is the goal, not its evidence. That write-up is simply dishonest!

And baptism is not categorized as a WORK for salvation. When the bible talks about works for salvation it is talking about efforts to make ourselves righteous, not all actions in and of themselves. If baptism is regarded as a work then so must the CHOICE to accept salvation be a work of the mind, and therefore a WORK, nonetheless, for salvation.

But baptism is the opposite of works to obtain righteousness. It is the BURYING and DEATH of all hopes of self doing anything to save self! We're good for nothing, as far as our works are concerned to save ourselves, so much so as to deserve death!

To write what this guy said about baptism and tongues is absolutely dishonest as well as wrong.

[mizpeh]

Originally Posted by mfblume

This is ridiculous! No one preaches physical act of speaking in tongues CAUSES salvation. Speaking in tongues is evidence of the Spirit already in a person. It's not the speaking in tongues that we want in order to be saved. It's the SPIRIT IN US. The evidence of a thing is not the the thing! And The SPIRIT is the goal, not its evidence. That write-up is simply dishonest!

And baptism is not categorized as a WORK for salvation. When the bible talks about works for salvation it is talking about efforts to make ourselves righteous, not all actions in and of themselves. If baptism is regarded as a work then so must the CHOICE to accept salvation be a work of the mind, and therefore a WORK, nonetheless, for salvation.

But baptism is the opposite of works to obtain righteousness. It is the BURYING and DEATH of all hopes of self doing anything to save self! We're good for nothing, as far as our works are concerned to save ourselves, so much so as to deserve death!

To write what this guy said about baptism and tongues is absolutely dishonest as well as wrong.

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by mfblume

This is ridiculous! No one preaches physical act of speaking in tongues CAUSES salvation. Speaking in tongues is evidence of the Spirit already in a person. It's not the speaking in tongues that we want in order to be saved. It's the SPIRIT IN US. The evidence of a thing is not the the thing! And The SPIRIT is the goal, not its evidence. That write-up is simply dishonest!

And baptism is not categorized as a WORK for salvation. When the bible talks about works for salvation it is talking about efforts to make ourselves righteous, not all actions in and of themselves. If baptism is regarded as a work then so must the CHOICE to accept salvation be a work of the mind, and therefore a WORK, nonetheless, for salvation.

But baptism is the opposite of works to obtain righteousness. It is the BURYING and DEATH of all hopes of self doing anything to save self! We're good for nothing, as far as our works are concerned to save ourselves, so much so as to deserve death!

To write what this guy said about baptism and tongues is absolutely dishonest as well as wrong.