Why Do You Believe Jesus is God?

[Sean]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

"He" is not an insert. I already showed you how the KJV translates the same exact greek word as "He", because the Greek pronoun is Masculine.

Further more, the KJV also has

Joh 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
Joh 1:4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

I get what you are saying Prax, but can "He" refer to "the word" in verse 2 if it is replaced there? I always thought "logos" was an actual SPOKEN word, not a "HE", (like your word is not a "HE")

1 In the beginning was the Word(Logos), and the Word(Logos) was with God, and the Word(Logos) was God.

2 The same(HE?) was in the beginning with God.

Can the Greek word (outos) here have a different meaning, similar to an English word having a different meaning according to the context? The KJV translators seemed to believe that in this case.

For instance..the word "WILL"...can you think of different meanings of the same word?

The OLD English translators of 1611 had a more accurate understanding of the old Greek language of the Received Text than we do today.



Their similarities of the 2 languages were far better understood in 1611...The modern day English/Greek translators could not hold a candle to the 1611 English/Greek translators as far as accuracy and understanding of Greek is concerned....

English words of Greek origin
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
This article contains special characters. Without proper rendering support, you may see question marks, boxes, or other symbols.
The Greek language has contributed to the English vocabulary in five main ways:

vernacular borrowings, transmitted through Vulgar Latin directly into Old English e.g. 'butter' (Old English butere < Latin butyrum < βούτυρον), or through French, e.g. 'ochre'.
learned borrowings from classical Greek, e.g. 'physics' (< Latin physica < Greek τὰ φυσικά);
a few borrowings via Arabic scientific and philosophical writing, e.g. 'alchemy' (< χημεία);
coinages in post-classical Latin or modern languages using classical Greek roots, e.g. 'telephone' (< τῆλε + φωνή) or a mixture of Greek and other roots, e.g. 'television' (< Greek τῆλε + English 'vision' < Latin visio); these are often shared among the modern European languages, including Modern Greek;
direct borrowings from Modern Greek, e.g. bouzouki.
The post-classical coinages are by far the most numerous of these

[MondayMorning]

When I hear people arguing over Jesus' place in the Godhead, sometimes what they really want to know is:

1. Can anyone other than Jesus also be the word made flesh? This usually men's they have a spiritual leader they consider of equal importance,

2. can I become perfect and spiritual enough to equal Jesus?

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Sean

I get what you are saying Prax, but can "He" refer to "the word" in verse 2 if it is replaced there? I always thought "logos" was an actual SPOKEN word, not a "HE", (like your word is not a "HE")

What was replaced? Nothing was replaced. Church is called "Her" and the rest of Jn 1 calls Jesus a HE using a completely different word than the one translated "That one" or "The same".

Logos is a Masculine noun and in Greek Nouns and the pronouns that modify them must agree in case, number and gender.

1 In the beginning was the Word(Logos), and the Word(Logos) was with God, and the Word(Logos) was God.

2 The same(HE?) was in the beginning with God.

Can the Greek word (outos) here have a different meaning, similar to an English word having a different meaning according to the context? The KJV translators seemed to believe that in this case.

It's a masculine pronoun. That won't change.

For instance..the word "WILL"...can you think of different meanings of the same word?

The OLD English translators of 1611 had a more accurate understanding of the old Greek language of the Received Text than we do today.

No they didn't. In fact they understood far less than we do today because of more recent discoveries. Further more they were translating into an English language nobody speaks anymore today.

Their similarities of the 2 languages were far better understood in 1611...The modern day English/Greek translators could not hold a candle to the 1611 English/Greek translators as far as accuracy and understanding of Greek is concerned....

that is absolutely false. Biblical Greek was a dead language at the time. Not many fully understood it grammatically as far as translating it into English

As an example, Thayers Lexicon was said to have been outdated before it even went to press but by then it was too late.

And, as I pointed out, your KJV translates Autos as "HIM" in Jn 1

Joh 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
Joh 1:4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

You are trying to argue the Logos is not a Person based on the reading "The same" instead of the masculine pronoun "He", yet the next two verses in the KJV uses the masculine pronoun "Him" 3 times

[Praxeas]

BTW Most of our language comes from Latin. Many Greek words we have influencing our language today comes through Latin. . Most languages over lap in similarities

[Trordfure]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

as I told you, You just quoted me quoting the verses you asked for. Do I really need to help you out here?

Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:2 He was in the beginning with God.
Joh 1:3 All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made.
Joh 1:4 In him was life, and the life was the light of men.

Joh 1:14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth.
Joh 1:15 (John bore witness about him, and cried out, "This was he of whom I said, 'He who comes after me ranks before me, because he was before me.'")
Joh 1:16 And from his fullness we have all received, grace upon grace.
Joh 1:17 For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.

There. The topic John is talking about is Jesus Christ. The word was made flesh and that word made flesh is called Jesus in vs 17

I want to make sure I understand you correctly,
as to what you believe.

You believe, this is Jesus Christ, that was in the beginning, was
with God, and was God, and made flesh.

True or false?

[Sean]

Originally Posted by Trordfure

I want to make sure I understand you correctly,
as to what you believe.

You believe, this is Jesus Christ, that was in the beginning, was
with God, and was God, and made flesh.

True or false?

Thats exactly what I have been trying to get at with Prax here...Thanks bro.

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Sean

Thats exactly what I have been trying to get at with Prax here...Thanks bro.

No what u had been getting at was originally to someone else about the KJV and its translation of the masculine word houto. Your argument is 2 fold that A) the Word can't be a person because the word should be "the same" and not "he" because a masculine pronoun like "he" indicates person hood.

But as I have shown your own translation calls the Word a "Him". How do you reconcile that?

Its your view that such pronouns would love indicate personhood not mine. So if that is your argument then what do you do with vs 4&5?

[Praxeas]

BTW I never said Jesus was with God. Its clear the Word was made flesh and John calls the Word made flesh "Jesus"

You were answered and with scriptures

[KeptByTheWord]

Originally Posted by MondayMorning

When I hear people arguing over Jesus' place in the Godhead, sometimes what they really want to know is:

1. Can anyone other than Jesus also be the word made flesh? This usually men's they have a spiritual leader they consider of equal importance,

2. can I become perfect and spiritual enough to equal Jesus?

A lot of times this is what it can be... but in the Oneness group, many (not all of course) argue over it because they feel this understanding makes them superior or better somehow than the rest of the believers who may not see it as they do.

I personally believe that there is no way that we can comprehend or completely understand the intricacies of the godhead. Paul saw things when he was caught up in the third heaven that he couldn't write down. I always wonder what he saw. God is not limited to our human abilities and understanding, and it is always helpful to remember that in these discussions.

[Sean]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

No what u had been getting at was originally to someone else about the KJV and its translation of the masculine word houto. Your argument is 2 fold that A) the Word can't be a person because the word should be "the same" and not "he" because a masculine pronoun like "he" indicates person hood.

But as I have shown your own translation calls the Word a "Him". How do you reconcile that?

Its your view that such pronouns would love indicate personhood not mine. So if that is your argument then what do you do with vs 4&5?

Verse 4 and 5 are not concerning the LOGOS, only verse 1 and 2 are. I was trying to get us to talk about that. "The same", instead of "HE" is used correctly because it refers to the LOGOS. Things change a bit from verse 3 on.....Logos is not used again until verse 14.