Is there going to be a rapture????

[Sean]

Originally Posted by shazeep

amen to that. ok, and with that said, i'll say that i am confident that there will not be at least the type of rapture that the est'd church promulgates--a bunch of people who have accepted Christ with their mouths, now waiting to die and go to heaven when Christ comes "in the air" to save them from themselves. Not gonna happen. Now, when you begin discussing a 'prepared bride' who has stood up to the forces of evil ("Armageddon"), and is being martyred to annihilation for this, when Christ then steps in--ok. possibly. if our translation (of a translation) of Scripture is being conveyed correctly. But it is just as likely that a spiritual thing is happening here, @ "rapture," and that our common understanding is completely naive--which i find more likely.

Do you think the BRIDE should be subjected to this?....Rev 16:8 And the fourth angel poured out his vial upon the sun; and power was given unto him to scorch men with fire.
9 And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory.



Brother, in reality, how you see the Christians fleeing from ISIS in the middle east is EXACTLY what the Christians of this world would do if exposed to the reign of Antichrist. Most folks think they are big, bad and tuff in the faith, but the fact is, some will fight back a little but mostly will run and deny the faith because of the unimaginable sufferings they will experience. We can hardly keep folks, and OURSELVES right with God in a time of peace right now....LOL.

If the church is allowed past Rev.11, it will be decimated and Jesus will have almost nobody left to rapture....Talk is cheap (He wont need to return for a sleeping bride as Matt 25 states, it will be a DEAD bride)

[Michael The Disciple]

Do you think the BRIDE should be subjected to this?....Rev 16:8 And the fourth angel poured out his vial upon the sun; and power was given unto him to scorch men with fire.
9 And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory.

Bro you know NO ONE teaches that. The plagues will not come to those who are in the secret place of the most high.

Does God have to take one to Heaven to keep them from plagues?

9Because thou hast made the LORD, which is my refuge, even the most High, thy habitation;
10There shall no evil befall thee, neither shall any plague come nigh thy dwelling. Psalms 91:9-10

We believe YHWH is able to put plagues where they belong and preserve the children of light simultaneously.

[Jason B]

I haven't read all this thread, and I don't really normally get all in on prophecy talk, but I've held to a post trib rapture for years. Pre-trib is the stuff of fantasy and fiction.

[Michael The Disciple]

Brother, in reality, how you see the Christians fleeing from ISIS in the middle east is EXACTLY what the Christians of this world would do if exposed to the reign of Antichrist. Most folks think they are big, bad and tuff in the faith, but the fact is, some will fight back a little but mostly will run and deny the faith because of the unimaginable sufferings they will experience. We can hardly keep folks, and OURSELVES right with God in a time of peace right now....LOL.

If the church is allowed past Rev.11, it will be decimated and Jesus will have almost nobody left to rapture....Talk is cheap (He wont need to return for a sleeping bride as Matt 25 states, it will be a DEAD bride)

This is exactly the point. Jesus said that MANY would fall away and hate and betray one another in that time. One reason will be they were taught they were to loved, to precious, to special for God to allow them to suffer!

Does God love his bride more than he loved his Son? You be the judge.

Was Paul part of the bride when his head was cut off? Was Peter when he was crucified upside down? Were these things horrific? Indeed they were. Nonetheless God allowed it to happen to ones he loved.

It has happened to MILLIONS since then.

But our little pre trib doctrine makes us think we are to good to have to suffer for the name of the bleeding lamb Yeshua. And follow that up with a steady diet of easy believism you can almost guarantee that the Christian will not be an overcomer but will be overcome.

The true message of forsaking all and hating our lives in this world is almost non exist. But after persecution and judgment hit all that will change. Christians will begin to see the magnitude of how they were deceived and there will yet be a strong remnant who will awaken to the truth. Sadly tho many will never learn. Many of them will be wearing the mark of the beast.

In the truth faith when one dies for Yeshua he or she is AN OVERCOMER.

They, not the devil wins the victory! Stephen defeated the devil when he was killed. The enemy was not able to make him deny Christ.

In our day many deny him over small things. They have not been taught the exceeding high value of having Jesus Christ as their Father! They sell their birthright for the pleasures of this world and their teachers tell them they will still enter Heaven, they will just lose some rewards.

[Sean]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

Bro you know NO ONE teaches that. The plagues will not come to those who are in the secret place of the most high.

Does God have to take one to Heaven to keep them from plagues?

9Because thou hast made the LORD, which is my refuge, even the most High, thy habitation;
10There shall no evil befall thee, neither shall any plague come nigh thy dwelling. Psalms 91:9-10

We believe YHWH is able to put plagues where they belong and preserve the children of light simultaneously.

Well in the case of the sun scorching men with fire, we are presenting 2 scenarios here....

Pre/Mid trib says the church will not be here to deal with it.

Post trib says the saints all over the planet are protected invisibly while the sinners are dying all around them of a sun going into a nova stage(getting unmercifully hot) in chapter 16. There is no evidence of this in Revelation.

But there is evidence of a rapture prior to this event in Chapter 11 on the LAST TRUMP as you already made clear here.

[Jason B]

Maybe someone answered this already (and y'all are probably thinking maybe I should just what read the thread)...but why would God spare His church tribulation in this world? He has never done so in history. First century Christians were killed in brutal ways, Christians in the middle ages the same, and even Christians in Iraq this week. Why do we pampered Americans think we will escape? I think pre-trib has to do with our culture of comfort more than Biblical or church history.

Why would God remove the church which is salt & light? Why would he remove us when our persecution (and God forbid, our death) serves to justify His righteous judgement at His coming (2 Thess 1:7-10) as wicked men store up wrath for themselves.

The rapture is said to happen at the last trump, in Revelation we see all kinds of hell and tribulation on the earth during the times of the first 6 trumpets, but no rapture.

The argument about Israel in Goshen ignites the fact that 1) they were apparently effected by the first plagues and 2)God was pouring out His wrath on Egypt, the tribulation is the wrath of Satan, not God (until Armageddon).

I'll read the thread guys in case y'all already hashed thus out.

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by Jason Badejo

Maybe someone answered this already (and y'all are probably thinking maybe I should just what read the thread)...but why would God spare His church tribulation in this world? He has never done so in history. First century Christians were killed in brutal ways, Christians in the middle ages the same, and even Christians in Iraq this week. Why do we pampered Americans think we will escape? I think pre-trib has to do with our culture of comfort more than Biblical or church history.

Why would God remove the church which is salt & light? Why would he remove us when our persecution (and God forbid, our death) serves to justify His righteous judgement at His coming (2 Thess 1:7-10) as wicked men store up wrath for themselves.

The rapture is said to happen at the last trump, in Revelation we see all kinds of hell and tribulation on the earth during the times of the first 6 trumpets, but no rapture.

The argument about Israel in Goshen ignites the fact that 1) they were apparently effected by the first plagues and 2)God was pouring out His wrath on Egypt, the tribulation is the wrath of Satan, not God (until Armageddon).

I'll read the thread guys in case y'all already hashed thus out.

Excellent

[Sean]

Originally Posted by Jason Badejo

Maybe someone answered this already (and y'all are probably thinking maybe I should just what read the thread)...but why would God spare His church tribulation in this world? He has never done so in history. First century Christians were killed in brutal ways, Christians in the middle ages the same, and even Christians in Iraq this week. Why do we pampered Americans think we will escape? I think pre-trib has to do with our culture of comfort more than Biblical or church history.

Why would God remove the church which is salt & light? Why would he remove us when our persecution (and God forbid, our death) serves to justify His righteous judgement at His coming (2 Thess 1:7-10) as wicked men store up wrath for themselves.

The rapture is said to happen at the last trump, in Revelation we see all kinds of hell and tribulation on the earth during the times of the first 6 trumpets, but no rapture.

The argument about Israel in Goshen ignites the fact that 1) they were apparently effected by the first plagues and 2)God was pouring out His wrath on Egypt, the tribulation is the wrath of Satan, not God (until Armageddon).

I'll read the thread guys in case y'all already hashed thus out.

Jason, thanks for your input here. Michael has shown us the rapture at the last trump of chapter 11. I must agree it very well could be it there. That places the rapture almost mid way through the Tribulation. The antichrist shows up 2 chapters later(13) and the Vails of wrath 5 chapters later(16). If we care to keep our names in the book of life, or not add the plagues to ourselves, we need not try to reinvent the chronological order of the book...yikes.

Notice the book starts with the 7 churches and ends with a new heaven and earth...in chronological order.

If you are interested, please follow us from the beginning...God bless

[Michael The Disciple]

Sean

But there is evidence of a rapture prior to this event in Chapter 11 on the LAST TRUMP as you already made clear here.

You have a problem here. Tho you correctly identify the rapture at the LAST TRUMP you are trying to make that happening either pre or mid trib.

And yet when Jesus comes AFTER THE TRIB he comes with the sound of a trumpet!

Watch this.

29Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. Matt 24:29-31

So the rapture that takes place POST TRIB announced by the sound of a trumpet.

THIS MUST BE THE LAST TRUMP. If the rapture happens at the LAST TRUMP this in Matt 24:31 is that rapture.

The seventh trump in Rev 11 is this very thing from Matt 24.

Hope this helps.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

If you believe the rapture is in Rev 11 you are NOT a pre trib believer.

Rev 11 contains the sounding of the last trumpet. I agree the rapture happens then. But count back the other 6 that sound before the last. You will find you have been through the tribulation.

Rev 12-19 tells the same story over again.

Sounds like you have it all figured out, too. So I guess I should not post anything, right?

Just using your reasoning.