Heaven is for Real Movie

[houston]

Originally Posted by FlamingZword

It's a miracle. for once I find myself in agreement with Houston. it is all a bunch of hooey.

i want a rainbow horse

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Disciple4life

If you review what Crakjak has said over an extended point of time you would see he makes some excellent points. Not letting someone make their case or being closed minded because you believe they are wrong is disrespectful.

When someone debates Crakjak they always use the same argument. What about Hitler? Doesn't the Bible have the word Hell in it? Blah Blah Blah.

Crakjak can defend his own position but nobody plays fair or comes up with an original argument after they fully hear what he believes. People guess what he believes and then commence to tear him down as a person. That is a Sad and Lazy way to debate.

CJ and I didn't meet yesterday, this has been an ongoing discussion between us on this forum for quite some time. The issue concerning Hitler is that he will be purified by God (since CJ believes that God's presence is a fire that purifies those who are in its presence. Since Hitler is currently supposedly in God's presence it would appear that he is being "fire cleansed?"

I'm just asking questions, and when the other guy dances around the questions by not making himself or herself clear you still must ask another question, but this time with your drawn conclusion.

[crakjak]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

While you are not on the same level as these individuals, David Moses Berg, or David Koresh, both men believed that their studies led them to the original truth of the apostles. Yet, by shining the light of the word of God upon their doctrines you will find they are both wrong. Jeffrey Dahmer, and Osama Ben Laden are not currently undergoing some sort of purification so they can enter into the heavenly realm of Christ. Our Bible doesn't offer second chances after death, especially water boarding on the third rung of some sort of Baptist purgatory.



You are sure that I won't agree because you yourself know that your doctrine isn't one that can be understood by Book, chapter, and verse, but must come through some special revelation? Or else you know that what you teach is so unbelievable that you yourself don't really believe it, but you are just hoping for hope? Hoping that when you die you don't get shown door number 3, and a bon voyage accompanied with the farewell words from Christ, "I never knew you."




Hence after all these years this is where you are ending up? Where you can't prove what you believe, and therefore have reserved yourself to believe that everyone is in the same boat as you? I'm sorry, I really am.



Caustic? No, not caustic, just asking you questions which you are unable to answer. Caustic is having you admit to a purgatory where the unrighteous wicked dead go to be "purified?" Not caustic my friend, just asking the questions.

I've never hesitated to answer every question you have ever presented to me. As far as "where you are ending up", I am very comfortable and full of peace and joy in the great purpose of God for ALL His creation. No need to feel sorry for me, I have never been in closer relationship with Jesus, or in greater confidence of His great love for humanity. He is not slack concerning His promises nor is arm short to save to the uttermost. No one is getting a free pass, all will face their delusions as God sets all things right. Why should God be so set on punishment of mankind when He has the ability and the willingness to bring all in to agreement to Him and with each other.

[crakjak]

Originally Posted by Disciple4life

If you review what Crakjak has said over an extended point of time you would see he makes some excellent points. Not letting someone make their case or being closed minded because you believe they are wrong is disrespectful.

When someone debates Crakjak they always use the same argument. What about Hitler? Doesn't the Bible have the word Hell in it? Blah Blah Blah.

Crakjak can defend his own position but nobody plays fair or comes up with an original argument after they fully hear what he believes. People guess what he believes and then commence to tear him down as a person. That is a Sad and Lazy way to debate.

[mfblume]

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by crakjak

I've never hesitated to answer every question you have ever presented to me. As far as "where you are ending up", I am very comfortable and full of peace and joy in the great purpose of God for ALL His creation. No need to feel sorry for me, I have never been in closer relationship with Jesus, or in greater confidence of His great love for humanity. He is not slack concerning His promises nor is arm short to save to the uttermost. No one is getting a free pass, all will face their delusions as God sets all things right. Why should God be so set on punishment of mankind when He has the ability and the willingness to bring all in to agreement to Him and with each other.

But CJ in the same breath one can say "why is God so set in torturing those who need to be purged?" God isn't bent sent on hurting anyone, punishment or torture. CJ you not only misquoted 2 Peter 3:9, but you added to the verse thoughts which the verse never present:

The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

If no one could perish then the writer wouldn't have mentioned it. The Apostle is repeating the thoughts of the prophet, Ezekiel 33:11 Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord God, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

That isn't after death when they are being waterboarded in some sort of purgatory, but that is in the here and now.

Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment. We have one life, and we will all stand before one judgement. The Bible is silent on any teaching of purging of the wicked in order for them to enter into eternal life.

Matthew 7:13-14 "Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it."

Jesus didn't say wide is the gate which enters into purging, but uses the word destruction. The Greek word απώλεια is the root where we get the name Απολλύων the destroyer the waster who rises out of the bottomless pit.

In John 3:14-16 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: That whosoever believeth in him should NOT perish, but have eternal life. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should NOT perish, but have everlasting life.

Brother CJ it doesn't say purging, it says perishing which is the opposite of life.

Let's use the Universal Salavationist's pet scripture, and how they see it and apply the same interpretation to the scriptures in John I quoted.

1st Corinthians 15:22

For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

So, if we have eternal life in John 3:14-16, then we have eternal perishing?

All those who reject Christ stay in 6th day of Adam which is still the labor unto death, and those who enter into Christ have entered into eternal rest.

Matthew 11:28

Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

Universal Salvationists usually only quote 1st Corinthians 15:22 without mentioning 1st Corinthians 15:23.

1st Corinthians 15:22-23

For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

You have to qualify the "all" Christ the firstfruits, afterward they who are Christ's at His coming. Those are the "all," those who are Christ's. Jesus turns those away who totally were convinced that they were followers of Jesus Christ, that they had an intimate relationship with Him as their master and Lord. But Jesus makes the comment that He NEVER KNEW THEM. This statement Jesus makes after He tells His students about the wide and strait gate, the condition of the good and bad trees, the fruits which the different trees produced.

Matthew 7:15-23

Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the FIRE (NOT INTO GOD). Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them. NOT every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall ENTER INTO THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN (NOT GETTING IN AT ANYTIME AFTER DEATH); but he that DOETH the WILL of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I NEVER KNEW YOU: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Matthew 25:41

"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into THE ETERNAL FIRE prepared for the devil and his angels."


Ezekiel 33:11

Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord God, I have NO pleasure in THE DEATH of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way AND LIVE: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why WILL YE DIE, O house of Israel?

Brother CJ the Bible only shows one route for the wicked and one route for the righteous, with no middle route of purging with a fire of God's presence until the evil wicked dead are cleansed enough to enter into heaven. No Bible for any of that.

[crakjak]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

But CJ in the same breath one can say "why is God so set in torturing those who need to be purged?" God isn't bent sent on hurting anyone, punishment or torture. CJ you not only misquoted 2 Peter 3:9, but you added to the verse thoughts which the verse never present:

The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

If no one could perish then the writer wouldn't have mentioned it. The Apostle is repeating the thoughts of the prophet, Ezekiel 33:11 Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord God, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

That isn't after death when they are being waterboarded in some sort of purgatory, but that is in the here and now.

Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment. We have one life, and we will all stand before one judgement. The Bible is silent on any teaching of purging of the wicked in order for them to enter into eternal life.

Matthew 7:13-14 "Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it."

Jesus didn't say wide is the gate which enters into purging, but uses the word destruction. The Greek word απώλεια is the root where we get the name Απολλύων the destroyer the waster who rises out of the bottomless pit.

In John 3:14-16 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: That whosoever believeth in him should NOT perish, but have eternal life. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should NOT perish, but have everlasting life.

Brother CJ it doesn't say purging, it says perishing which is the opposite of life.

Let's use the Universal Salavationist's pet scripture, and how they see it and apply the same interpretation to the scriptures in John I quoted.

1st Corinthians 15:22

For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

So, if we have eternal life in John 3:14-16, then we have eternal perishing?

All those who reject Christ stay in 6th day of Adam which is still the labor unto death, and those who enter into Christ have entered into eternal rest.

Matthew 11:28

Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

Universal Salvationists usually only quote 1st Corinthians 15:22 without mentioning 1st Corinthians 15:23.

1st Corinthians 15:22-23

For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

You have to qualify the "all" Christ the firstfruits, afterward they who are Christ's at His coming. Those are the "all," those who are Christ's. Jesus turns those away who totally were convinced that they were followers of Jesus Christ, that they had an intimate relationship with Him as their master and Lord. But Jesus makes the comment that He NEVER KNEW THEM. This statement Jesus makes after He tells His students about the wide and strait gate, the condition of the good and bad trees, the fruits which the different trees produced.

Matthew 7:15-23

Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the FIRE (NOT INTO GOD). Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them. NOT every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall ENTER INTO THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN (NOT GETTING IN AT ANYTIME AFTER DEATH); but he that DOETH the WILL of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I NEVER KNEW YOU: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Matthew 25:41

"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into THE ETERNAL FIRE prepared for the devil and his angels."


Ezekiel 33:11

Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord God, I have NO pleasure in THE DEATH of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way AND LIVE: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why WILL YE DIE, O house of Israel?

Brother CJ the Bible only shows one route for the wicked and one route for the righteous, with no middle route of purging with a fire of God's presence until the evil wicked dead are cleansed enough to enter into heaven. No Bible for any of that.

You complete presentation here is thru the lens of your doctrinal teaching, but of course there is and has been since the earliest of the early church a very different view.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by crakjak

You complete presentation here is thru the lens of your doctrinal teaching, but of course there is and has been since the earliest of the early church a very different view.

CJ that's what they all say.

A very different view since the earliest of the early church? Wow, that must be real early. The Hebrews of the Hebrew Bible would be considered the earliest, and they didn't believe everyone was saved. The teaching that the burning flames of the lake of fire are meant to purge sins so the soul will be redeemed was not taught by Jesus Christ. Mark 3:29, Luke 12:10, Blaspheming the Holy Ghost was never to be forgiven, therefore eliminating any hope for salvation. The Apostle writes Hebrews 6:4-6...

For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

Impossible if they fall away to renew themselves unto repentance?

The Apostle goes on further to say this in Hebrews 10:26...

For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a terrifying expectation of judgment and THE FURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES. Someone who rejected the law of Moses was put to death without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. Just think how much WORSE the punishment will be for those who have trampled on the Son of God, and have treated the blood of the covenant, which made us holy, as if it were common and unholy, and have insulted and disdained the Holy Ghost who brings God's mercy to us.

Sorry CJ, but that's no fire of purification, but a fire of decimation.

Yet, I'm eager to learn, so by all means please show how these scriptures offer hope to those who reject God in this life and were Christ haters.

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

CJ that's what they all say.

A very different view since the earliest of the early church? Wow, that must be real early. The Hebrews of the Hebrew Bible would be considered the earliest, and they didn't believe everyone was saved. The teaching that the burning flames of the lake of fire are meant to purge sins so the soul will be redeemed was not taught by Jesus Christ. Mark 3:29, Luke 12:10, Blaspheming the Holy Ghost was never to be forgiven, therefore eliminating any hope for salvation. The Apostle writes Hebrews 6:4-6...

For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

Impossible if they fall away to renew themselves unto repentance?

The Apostle goes on further to say this in Hebrews 10:26...

For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a terrifying expectation of judgment and THE FURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES. Someone who rejected the law of Moses was put to death without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. Just think how much WORSE the punishment will be for those who have trampled on the Son of God, and have treated the blood of the covenant, which made us holy, as if it were common and unholy, and have insulted and disdained the Holy Ghost who brings God's mercy to us.

Sorry CJ, but that's no fire of purification, but a fire of decimation.

Yet, I'm eager to learn, so by all means please show how these scriptures offer hope to those who reject God in this life and were Christ haters.

Truth!

[crakjak]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

CJ that's what they all say.

A very different view since the earliest of the early church? Wow, that must be real early. The Hebrews of the Hebrew Bible would be considered the earliest, and they didn't believe everyone was saved. The teaching that the burning flames of the lake of fire are meant to purge sins so the soul will be redeemed was not taught by Jesus Christ. Mark 3:29, Luke 12:10, Blaspheming the Holy Ghost was never to be forgiven, therefore eliminating any hope for salvation. The Apostle writes Hebrews 6:4-6...

For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

Impossible if they fall away to renew themselves unto repentance?

The Apostle goes on further to say this in Hebrews 10:26...

For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a terrifying expectation of judgment and THE FURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES. Someone who rejected the law of Moses was put to death without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. Just think how much WORSE the punishment will be for those who have trampled on the Son of God, and have treated the blood of the covenant, which made us holy, as if it were common and unholy, and have insulted and disdained the Holy Ghost who brings God's mercy to us.

Sorry CJ, but that's no fire of purification, but a fire of decimation.

Yet, I'm eager to learn, so by all means please show how these scriptures offer hope to those who reject God in this life and were Christ haters.

If I show historical evidence of the majority opinion until the 5th century will you really consider it??