Has there ALWAYS been a true church?

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by shazeep

So, man's definition then, and not God's. If i get you. Is there a ref tying ecclesia and true church? Ty

The word ekklesia MEANS a called-out assembly.

[Jermyn Davidson]

I don't believe there has always been an assembly of Christians that believe salvation as expressed by the UPCI-- which is one of many reasons why what they say doesn't hold water with me any more.

None of the other revivals that happened before Azusa brought about the UPCI doctrine-- were those not real revivals? Was God just prepping those saints for the revelation to come? Ok-- what if they died before that Acts 2:38 revelation as presented by the UPCI?

To think that NO ONE will go to heaven unless they are baptized "in the Name of Jesus" and speak in tongues CONDEMNS the vast majority of anyone who ever expressed faith in Jesus Christ.

AND... Paul and Silas didn't insist that the jailer speak in tongues. They insisted the jailer believe.

Salvation as presented by the UPCI has so many holes!

To be honest, I don't even know why I try to hold on to any thing that ties me to those people or their stupid doctrines. All it does is create confusion and strife as they attempt to fill in holes where the Bible is silent when if they really believed what the Bible says, there wouldn't be any holes in their doctrines concerning salvation.

[shazeep]

Originally Posted by Esaias

The word ekklesia MEANS a called-out assembly.

ah--and you feel it is justified to apply this to a physical assembly. Gotcha.

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by Jermyn Davidson

I don't believe there has always been an assembly of Christians that believe salvation as expressed by the UPCI-- which is one of many reasons why what they say doesn't hold water with me any more.

None of the other revivals that happened before Azusa brought about the UPCI doctrine-- were those not real revivals? Was God just prepping those saints for the revelation to come? Ok-- what if they died before that Acts 2:38 revelation as presented by the UPCI?

To think that NO ONE will go to heaven unless they are baptized "in the Name of Jesus" and speak in tongues CONDEMNS the vast majority of anyone who ever expressed faith in Jesus Christ.

AND... Paul and Silas didn't insist that the jailer speak in tongues. They insisted the jailer believe.

Salvation as presented by the UPCI has so many holes!

To be honest, I don't even know why I try to hold on to any thing that ties me to those people or their stupid doctrines. All it does is create confusion and strife as they attempt to fill in holes where the Bible is silent when if they really believed what the Bible says, there wouldn't be any holes in their doctrines concerning salvation.

To me the more important thing is what do we see in the book of Acts? Did THEY baptize in Jesus name? Did they believe you received the Spirit just on believing? Was tongues a BIG part of what was happening then?

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by Esaias

I can accept the idea a genuine church being deficient in certain areas. The Corinthians, Galatians, and most of the seven churches in Revelation had serious problems with their doctrines and practices. There seems to be a basic minimum which would qualify an assembly as being an authentic God-planted ekklesia. If they fail to grow they are subject to being cut off, it seems.

Just thinking out loud here but doesn't the great commission at least imply that a genuine assembly is started by a genuine assembly? Like begets like and all that? How could a heresy give birth to truth? How could a pseudo ekklesia produce a true one?

I accept there are Christians gathering together with each other holding doctrinal error but not that THAT constitutes a "true Church". The true Church will hold steadfastly to the apostles doctrine. They will contend for the faith once given to the saints.

When the Holiness people of 1901 discovered new truth they accepted it. So groups in error can gain in truth. They or "we" as the case may be after being filled with the Spirit have potential to be led by the Spirit into all truth.

[Jermyn Davidson]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

To me the more important thing is what do we see in the book of Acts? Did THEY baptize in Jesus name? Did they believe you received the Spirit just on believing? Was tongues a BIG part of what was happening then?

Yes they baptized in Jesus name.

No, they did not believe that one received the Holy Spirit just on believing.

Yes, speaking tongues was a BIG part of what was happening then.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by shazeep

ah--and you feel it is justified to apply this to a physical assembly. Gotcha.

Seriously? God has assemblies of people called to assemble together as a kingdom jural society... but those assemblies aren't "physical assemblies"...????

I really don't know how to converse with someone who rejects the basic meanings of simple words. I guess a term can just mean whatever we want it to mean.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

I accept there are Christians gathering together with each other holding doctrinal error but not that THAT constitutes a "true Church". The true Church will hold steadfastly to the apostles doctrine. They will contend for the faith once given to the saints.

When the Holiness people of 1901 discovered new truth they accepted it. So groups in error can gain in truth. They or "we" as the case may be after being filled with the Spirit have potential to be led by the Spirit into all truth.

If an assembly of believers do not believe in foundation apostolic doctrine regarding regeneration and remission of sins then what exactly are they?

Is it a bible doctrine that there would ALWAYS be an assembly somewhere that at least knows the identity of God as well as the correct answer to the question "how does a sinner become a Christian"?

And will God "create" a church in a time and place with NO connection to that proposed existing genuine assembly?

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Esaias

So... if Oneness theology and "Jesus name baptism" and "Holy Ghost baptism evidenced by glossalalia" are true doctrines of God's true church... then has there been an unbroken line of assemblies from Pentecost to today?

If not, does that mean there periods of time when there was NO ASSEMBLY OF TRUE SAINTS in the world?


And if that be true, how could any church truly come about ... during a time when there was not one single SAVED BELIEVER on earth?

Church refers to the body of believers not necessarily a visible congregation or organization

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Esaias

I would like to think that as well. But...

1. Is such an expectation biblical?

2. If it were true then the church today has little to no actual connection with any prior true church....

3. If it is not true then do we admit there have been periods of time since Pentecost when God had NO earthly witnesses?

God's witness is His word. His people witness to the resurrection of Jesus. I don't think it requires someone having All their ducks lined up in a row necessary.

Look at the Oneness churches today dividing over a single issue like standards, facial hair, TV or Internet and often inform the other group they are not really saved anymore.