A-, Pre-, or Post mil?

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Esaias

If Rev 20 is symbolic of non-existent things (like the millenium) then there is no return of Jesus depicted in the book... which is rather strange, imo.

Also, the idea that no new information can come from the REVELATION OF JESUS CHRIST WHICH GOD GAVE TO HIM is without any scriptural warrant. There is no verse that says "the contents of this book are not suitable for DOCTRINE" or "this book shall not bring anything new to your understanding". Such a rule of interpretation is ENTIRELY and COMPLETELY ARBITRARY, and is designed ONLY to avoid certain obvious truths clearly and UNMISTAKABLY taught by the Apocalypse. The millenium is only one such concept.

It is suitable for doctrine. But how do you distinguish what is doctrine in the book that is not presented elsewhere in the entire bible, and conclude that God would place doctrine outside of plain teaching? I truly believe that if doctrine of salvation was handled this way by people, not many here would ever pay attention to it.

Imagine Acts 2:38 not being plainly taught by Peter, but instead found in the midst of visions where the overall series of visions do not include what parts are symbolic or not. We'd throw a guy out on his ear if he came presenting salvation to us like that.

Again, this is why I believe Revelation can only reflect what IS plainly taught as doctrine elsewhere. And IN THAT SENSE is profitable for doctrine!

[Michael The Disciple]

Imagine Acts 2:38 not being plainly taught by Peter, but instead found in the midst of visions where the overall series of visions do not include what parts are symbolic or not. We'd throw a guy out on his ear if he came presenting salvation to us like that.

Again, this is why I believe Revelation can only reflect what IS plainly taught as doctrine elsewhere. And IN THAT SENSE is profitable for doctrine!

Hi Mike,

Hold that thought! I will be using it as usual in our soon coming discussion of immortality of the soul or resurrection of the dead!

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Anybody suspicious of a Millennial view that Jesus never laid out in plain teaching at all anywhere, nor did the apostles, that is derived from a passage in Revelation 20, while Revelation is highly symbolic?

Would God place a doctrinal point in the midst of a Book that has symbols that are not interpreted for us in many cases, where we are not flatly told where the symbols start and end, when Jesus and the Apostles never said anything in plain teaching manner about the millennial concept?

That's why I claim the passage in rev 20 CAN ONLY be symbolic of what the Apostles and Jesus plainly taught elsewhere in the New Testament.

Revelation 20:4 KJV And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them,...

Ephesians 2:6 KJV And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

Apostle Paul clearly taught that the saints would rule the nations.

1Dare any of you, having a matter against another, go to law before the unjust, and not before the saints? 2Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters? 3Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life? 1 Cor. 6:1

When you see the term "judge the world" think Gideon, Samuel, Samson, ect. The judges of Israel. We will judge the world in the same sense they judged Israel.

At present yes we are seated in Heavenly places in Christ. This is A TYPE of what will happen at the coming of Christ Jesus. It would certainly be a very disappointing kingdom if the present situation were all there was to it.

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by mfblume

That is more the truth of the matter than anything. We must through much tribulation enter the kingdom of heaven. Acts 14:22. Rather than say THIS or THAT is the "Great Tribulation" foretold by Jesus, I claim it is long past, and everything we see now is simply the standard for every believer in one form or another. I think of THESE verses when I see troubles it the world today.

But we'll still see experts analyze the idiosyncrasies of each trouble in current times we happen to be in, and point to indications that it is THE "GREAT" one prophesied.

There is a reason we cannot just leave the thought of the great tribulation in the past.

15When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand 16Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: 17Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: 18Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. 19And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! 20But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: 21For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. Matt 24:15-21

Christ Jesus said the great tribulation he was referring to would be the worst time of tribulation the world had ever known up until that time. Also there would NEVER AGAIN be such a terrible time.

What happened to the Jewish people in Jerusalem in 70 ad does not qualify as the greatest tribulation the world has ever known. Other things in history were more intense and far more destructive and deadly than it.

Far more people died in both World War 1 and World War 2 than in 70 ad. Even far more JEWISH PEOPLE died under the Nazi's in WW2 than died in Jerusalem 70ad.

With these facts established it should be clear that if the great tribulation would be such a terrible time and that such a time would NEVER AGAIN occur I think we can leave the idea of it being fulfilled in 70 ad behind.

Tribulation far greater HAS happened since then.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

There is a reason we cannot just leave the thought of the great tribulation in the past.

15When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand 16Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: 17Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: 18Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. 19And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! 20But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: 21For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. Matt 24:15-21

Christ Jesus said the great tribulation he was referring to would be the worst time of tribulation the world had ever known up until that time. Also there would NEVER AGAIN be such a terrible time.

What happened to the Jewish people in Jerusalem in 70 ad does not qualify as the greatest tribulation the world has ever known. Other things in history were more intense and far more destructive and deadly than it.

Far more people died in both World War 1 and World War 2 than in 70 ad. Even far more JEWISH PEOPLE died under the Nazi's in WW2 than died in Jerusalem 70ad.

With these facts established it should be clear that if the great tribulation would be such a terrible time and that such a time would NEVER AGAIN occur I think we can leave the idea of it being fulfilled in 70 ad behind.

Tribulation far greater HAS happened since then.

You estimate greatness by a standard that is not necessarily what Jesus intended. You may be right, it might be. But I seriously do not think so. GREAT can be great in various ways. Jerusalem was HIS BRIDE. Read Ezekiel 16 to see that. His NAME was there in the form of the temple. And THE GREATEST trouble of all time was HIS OWN BRIDE being wiped out after having played the whore with Rome and repeating the same harlotry she was known to practice for centuries before. This was HIS WIFE! GREAT here is SIGNIFICANCE.

The reason it would never again be so, it because the only thing that could match it or exceed it is the CHURCH BRIDE turning her back on Him and Him destroying her. And that is not going to happen.

AS HIS BRIDE, Jerusalem of old stopped existing in AD70 when He judged that generation -- the same generation from Matt 24:34 that would see ALL THE REST OF THE EVENTS OCCUR> If the temple destruction was part of those events, and that occurred in AD70, then everything else listed there would also occur for that generation. And since the great tribulation was part of the same list as the temple destruction, then that was the one of AD70.

Even the simple context from Matt 21 onward flows into chapter 24 when Jesus repeatedly warned Israel of their doom due to rejecting him the day He rode into the city as her king and flipped the moneychangers' tables.

The disciples solely asked him about the words at the end of Matt 23, when they pointed him tot he temple buildings that he just said would be left desolate after speaking about Jerusalem losing the chance to be gathered under wings like a hen gathers chicks when facing danger.

Nothing made Jesus change topics to the disciples' questions about THEIR DAY to some events to not occur for millennia later.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

Apostle Paul clearly taught that the saints would rule the nations.

1Dare any of you, having a matter against another, go to law before the unjust, and not before the saints? 2Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters? 3Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life? 1 Cor. 6:1

When you see the term "judge the world" think Gideon, Samuel, Samson, ect. The judges of Israel. We will judge the world in the same sense they judged Israel.

At present yes we are seated in Heavenly places in Christ. This is A TYPE of what will happen at the coming of Christ Jesus. It would certainly be a very disappointing kingdom if the present situation were all there was to it.

It's not a type. It's a reality. We have a spiritual kingdom. But the judging of the world is speaking about the white throne judgment. No where did Paul say a thousand year period will see us rule a Utopian system of peace on earth. The ruling is after the white throne and lasts forevermore, not a mere one thousand years.

[mfblume]

The point stands. Revelation 20 is the ONLY place where a millennium is considered. And it is in the midst of symbolism and lack of plain teaching everywhere in the book. It can only symbolize what was taught in plain teaching.

Everything people pull from the rest of the bible to connect to the millennium, especially Isaiah and Ezekiel, are references that speak nothing about a thousand year period, nor a time of satan's bondage. Jesus already spoiled the devil according to Col 2, and He said spoiling is done for the purpose of binding. He;'s not bound to no longer temple man. He's restricted from the vastly wider freedom he had before the cross. In fact, he's so restricted, that Heb 2:14 uses the term DESTROYED, which is far less than bound in severity.