Apostolic But Not Believing Jesus is The Father? - Page 49

Jermyn Davidson · #**481** 11-03-2014, 01:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aquila

I think it is important to define the word "person".

I believe a "person" to be a self-conscious reality, personality, or "self" that is able to be distinguished from another self-conscious reality, personality, or "self" through the expression of an "I/thou" relationship.

Therefore, when Jesus speaks of Himself in a manner that distinguishes His own self-conscious reality, personality, or self from the Father... He establishes His own distinct personhood.

Considering the limitations that Jesus speaks of (in comparison to His Father), I conclude that Christ's person is human with human limitations.

Considering the Epistles, I also conclude that the human person of Jesus, the Son of God, is fashioned in the express image of the Father's own person.

Now, I also believe that this human person (the man Jesus Christ) and the Father (God) exist in an inseparable union. They are one and exist in a state wherein their singleness of being is best described as being a mutual indwelling. As a result, each partakes in all that the other is. This allows us to be able to say that in Christ, God became a man. And that this man was also God.

Aquilla,

Why is it "wrong" to believe and clearly state that Jesus was with the Father from the begining? The Bible states that Jesus was with God at the begining.

Aquila · #**482** 11-03-2014, 01:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jermyn Davidson

Aquilla,

Why is it "wrong" to believe and clearly state that Jesus was with the Father from the begining? The Bible states that Jesus was with God at the begining.

Well... that's a great question to ponder. How was Jesus with God at the beginning? Was He an active distinct person emanating from the Father's own being as in Trinitarianism? Or was He with God in the sense that He was the very thought, plan, ideal, goal, and aim of God existent within the heart and mind of God from the beginning? All things being made "in Him" meaning predicating upon His coming reality.

Aquila · #**483** 11-03-2014, 01:28 PM

Also... let's look at John 1:1-5:

John 1:1-5 King James Version (KJV)
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

When reading this some picture two persons existing in a face to face relationship standing in a void. Suddenly the first turns to the second and has the second person initiate creation and eventually incarnate Himself bringing life and light to mankind.

Others see God's thought, plan, goal, aim, or intent emblazoned in the mind of God. Then they see God Himself create all things through this very thought and intent. Then in the fullness of time they see this thought become flesh and God manifest Himself in Him, bringing life and light to mankind.

Others see a manger and hear John's voice speaking over a crying babe, the beginning being the beginning of the plan of redemption. This babe being described as God's thought, plan, goal, aim, or intent through which and for which all creation was fashioned. He being one with God, brings life and light to mankind.

We could go on and on illustrating even Arian notions.

Jermyn Davidson · #**484** 11-03-2014, 01:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aquila

Well... that's a great question to ponder. How was Jesus with God at the beginning? Was He an active distinct person emanating from the Father's own being as in Trinitarianism? Or was He with God in the sense that He was the very thought, plan, ideal, goal, and aim of God existent within the heart and mind of God from the beginning? All things being made "in Him" meaning predicating upon His coming reality.

St. John 1:2 does not indicate an existence merely in thought.

St. John 1:1, 1:2 along with the Horseman that is the Word of GOD in the Book of Revelations....

Does the Bible allow for GOD to exist apart from and simultaneously with His WORD?

I am not trying to advocate tritheism or even "bi-theism".

Jermyn Davidson · #**485** 11-03-2014, 01:30 PM

"He sent 'His Word' and healed them..."

mfblume · #**486** 11-03-2014, 01:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sean

Lets see now folks..the best "tainted" Bible I can find is the KJV, I guess I will just have to tolerate it....

Wait a minute, I can make my OWN Bible out of commentaries and Lexicons...

Thats what happens when men are undecided with whether the KJV Bible is accurate or not.

(we may even have one of these guys on AFF)

You just worship Ishtarte or Ashtaroeth in Passover and I will serve God. How about that?

Aquila · #**487** 11-03-2014, 02:02 PM

As I contemplate the relationship between God and the Logos, I relate it to the Sun and it's light and heat. The Sun is indeed the Sun. However, what makes it able to be perceived is the very light and heat that emanates from it. Thus, the Logos is what reveals God, it is the very light and life of God active in time and space, filling the entire creation.

In the beginning was the Light, and the Light was with God, and the Light was God.

It was this light and life of God that was personified in the man, Jesus Christ.

mfblume · #**488** 11-03-2014, 02:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aquila

As I contemplate the relationship between God and the Logos, I relate it to the Sun and it's light and heat. The Sun is indeed the Sun. However, what makes it able to be perceived is the very light and heat that emanates from it. Thus, the Logos is what reveals God, it is the very light and life of God active in time and space, filling the entire creation.

In the beginning was the Light, and the Light was with God, and the light was God.

It was this light and life of God that was personified in the man, Jesus Christ.

Revelation 21:23 KJV And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.

Aquila · #**489** 11-03-2014, 02:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mfblume

Revelation 21:23 KJV And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.

Aquila · #**490** 11-03-2014, 02:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aquila

As I contemplate the relationship between God and the Logos, I relate it to the Sun and it's light and heat. The Sun is indeed the Sun. However, what makes it able to be perceived is the very light and heat that emanates from it. Thus, the Logos is what reveals God, it is the very light and life of God active in time and space, filling the entire creation.

In the beginning was the Light, and the Light was with God, and the Light was God.

It was this light and life of God that was personified in the man, Jesus Christ.

As it is written:

John 1:1-10 English Standard Version (ESV)
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made. 4 In him was life, and the life was the light of men. 5 The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it.
6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7 He came as a witness, to bear witness about the light, that all might believe through him. 8 He was not the light, but came to bear witness about the light.
9 The true light, which gives light to everyone, was coming into the world. 10 He was in the world, and the world was made through him, yet the world did not know him.