Apostolic But Not Believing Jesus is The Father?

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Those issues did not matter to me.

Maybe not but I run into people all the time that have no idea about it

[Aquila]

How do you define "person" Prax?

I believe a "person" to be a self-conscious reality, personality, or "self" that is able to be distinguished from another self-conscious reality, personality, or "self" through the expression of an "I/thou" relationship. Therefore, when Jesus speaks of Himself in a manner that distinguishes His own self-conscious reality, personality, or self from the Father... He establishes His own distinct personhood.

Considering the limitations that Jesus speaks of (in comparison to His Father), I conclude that Christ's person is human with human limitations.

Considering the Epistles, I also conclude that the human person of Jesus, the Son of God, is fashioned in the express image of the Father's own person. Therefore, the human person, the Son of God, reflects the very image of the Father's own person. Therefore, even in Christ's humanity He is a reflection of the Father. As a result, the Father's own person is perfectly revealed in the human person of Jesus, as a man.

Now, I also believe that this human person (the man Jesus Christ) and the Father (God) exist in an inseparable union. They are one and exist in a state wherein their singleness of being is best described as being a mutual indwelling. As a result, each partakes in all that the other is. This allows us to be able to say that in Christ, God became a man. And that this man was also God.

[Jermyn Davidson]

Would a better question be, "How did they define 'person' at the time of the crafting of the Trinity as a doctrine"?

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Aquila

How do you define "person" Prax?

I believe a "person" to be a self-conscious reality, personality, or "self" that is able to be distinguished from another self-conscious reality, personality, or "self" through the expression of an "I/thou" relationship. Therefore, when Jesus speaks of Himself in a manner that distinguishes His own self-conscious reality, personality, or self from the Father... He establishes His own distinct personhood.

Considering the limitations that Jesus speaks of (in comparison to His Father), I conclude that Christ's person is human with human limitations.

Considering the Epistles, I also conclude that the human person of Jesus, the Son of God, is fashioned in the express image of the Father's own person. Therefore, the human person, the Son of God, reflects the very image of the Father's own person. Therefore, even in Christ's humanity He is a reflection of the Father. As a result, the Father's own person is perfectly revealed in the human person of Jesus, as a man.

Now, I also believe that this human person (the man Jesus Christ) and the Father (God) exist in an inseparable union. They are one and exist in a state wherein their singleness of being is best described as being a mutual indwelling. As a result, each partakes in all that the other is. This allows us to be able to say that in Christ, God became a man. And that this man was also God.

You have two persons.. Honestly nothing you said made sense to me.

One Person is a man but is also God. God (One person) became that man (*the other person)

God became two persons.

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Jermyn Davidson

Would a better question be, "How did they define 'person' at the time of the crafting of the Trinity as a doctrine"?

3 hypostasis

[Michael The Disciple]

There are not two God persons. Rather there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.

Jesus is YHWH in his deity and the man Christ Jesus in his humanity. I really dont see anything wrong with saying there is one God person and one human person.

[KeptByTheWord]

I read something last night in Colossians, and while it may not be exactly where this discussion is, I thought I would share it.

It seems that the Colossians were somewhat confused about who Jesus was too, and Paul was writing to them to try to dispel the clouds of untruth that they had been listening to.

Paul wrote in Col. 2:2-4 saying "...that their hearts might be knit together in love, and unto all riches of the full assurance of understanding, to the acknowledgement of the mystery of God and of the Father and of Christ, in whom are hid all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge. And this I say lest any man should beguile you with enticing words.

So it seems here that the Colossians were struggling with understanding the diety of Christ, and were listening to men with "beguiling words" and the book of Colossians is written to dispel these words.

Just a few verses down, Paul says in vs 9-10 "For in Him (Jesus) dwelleth all the fullness of the godhead bodily." How much plainer can it get than that?

Maybe this scripture is perhaps just a bit more plainer: Col. 1:15 "Who (Jesus) is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature."

Jesus is the image of the invisible God, possessing all the fullness of the Godhead bodily in his flesh. God is a spirit, and He, the invisible God, became flesh, and dwelt among us. I think even a child could understand this.

God is a spirit that is invisible. In order to be seen, he created himself a body - Jesus - to dwell in.

In this way Jesus is both man and God, the invisible and visible combined into one unique being.

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

There are not two God persons. Rather there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.

Jesus is YHWH in his deity and the man Christ Jesus in his humanity. I really dont see anything wrong with saying there is one God person and one human person.

That is Unitarianism

[Michael The Disciple]

No "Unitarian" teaches that Jesus is God and man. That teach Jesus is a man.

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

No "Unitarian" teaches that Jesus is God and man. That teach Jesus is a man.

Which is where Oneness is confusing

You just argued two persons. The Father is the Divine person and the Son is the Human person...but Jesus is both God and man. So Jesus is two persons

So there are two persons named Jesus. So there are two Jesus'

See they teach Jesus is a man because to them and everyone else the name Jesus is the name of the Son...which you said is a Human person

But then you just said Jesus is God and man so to the Trinitarians you have 2 Divine Persons.

That is really confusing