Circumcision of the heart - Page 4

mfblume · #31 12-01-2014, 08:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Originalist

I submit that it happens as a result of our baptism but not necessarily simultaneously with it.

Whatever the case, baptism must be involved, though.

obriencp · #32 12-01-2014, 10:45 AM

While Colossians 2 shows a case for water baptism, i believe there is just as much of a case for spirit baptism. Being risen with Him and being quickened are both in those passages not just the death and burrial aspects. Being risen and being quickened are things the spirit brings, not water baptism.

Romans 2:29 seems to equate cicumcision of the heart to circumcision of the spirit. Romans 4:11 talks about Abraham recieving the sign of circumcision, a SEAL of the faith he had. II Corinthians 1:22, Ephesians 1:13, and 4:13 talk about how we're sealed by the Spirit until he redeems us (the purchased church). These various passages lead me to believe that spiritual/heart circumcision is done by the Spirit which seals us and writes God's law on our hearts. Recieving the Spirit seems to bring everything full circle.

mfblume · #33 12-01-2014, 10:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by obriencp

While Colossians 2 shows a case for water baptism, i believe there is just as much of a case for spirit baptism. Being risen with Him and being quickened are both in those passages not just the death and burrial aspects. Being risen and being quickened are things the spirit brings, not water baptism.

Romans 2:29 seems to equate cicumcision of the heart to circumcision of the spirit. Romans 4:11 talks about Abraham recieving the sign of circumcision, a SEAL of the faith he had. II Corinthians 1:22, Ephesians 1:13, and 4:13 talk about how we're sealed by the Spirit until he redeems us (the purchased church). These various passages lead me to believe that spiritual/heart circumcision is done by the Spirit which seals us and writes God's law on our hearts. Recieving the Spirit seems to bring everything full circle.

Spirit baptism is never equated with resurrection in the epistles. It is assumed so by so many, but the bible never actually makes that point.

So many think repentance is death, baptism is burial and Spirit infilling is resurrection. But the bible never said that. When Col 2 speaks about baptism it is clearly water, because the same thing was said about baptism in 1 Peter 3-4 and Romans 6.

Romans 6 says we're baptized into His death, not repentant into his death, for example.

Esaias · #34 12-01-2014, 12:49 PM

Do not the scriptures teach we are made alive by the Spirit?

mfblume · #35 12-01-2014, 01:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Esaias

Do not the scriptures teach we are made alive by the Spirit?

I don't think so. You may be right, though. What passage would you be referring to?

We are BORN AGAIN by water and Spirit, if that's what you mean.

I do know that Romans 6 is about water baptism, and says after baptism we're to present ourselves to God as those alive from the dead. He did not mention Spirit baptism in there anywhere. Your thoughts?

obriencp · #36 12-01-2014, 05:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mfblume

Spirit baptism is never equated with resurrection in the epistles. It is assumed so by so many, but the bible never actually makes that point.

So many think repentance is death, baptism is burial and Spirit infilling is resurrection. But the bible never said that. When Col 2 speaks about baptism it is clearly water, because the same thing was said about baptism in 1 Peter 3-4 and Romans 6.

Romans 6 says we're baptized into His death, not repentant into his death, for example.

Romans 6:4-5 ...what raised Jesus up from the dead? The Glory of the Father. I propose that the Glory of the Father is the Holy Spirit, not water baptism. Just as we are to be burried with him (water baptism) we are also to be resurrected with him (spirit).

Romans 8:5-11

also a number of verses in John equate the spirit to life.

mfblume · #37 12-01-2014, 05:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by obriencp

Romans 6:4-5 ...what raised Jesus up from the dead? The Glory of the Father. I propose that the Glory of the Father is the Holy Spirit, not water baptism. Just as we are to be burried with him (water baptism) we are also to be resurrected with him (spirit).

Romans 8:5-11

also a number of verses in John equate the spirit to life.

Not direct enough a passage for our experience, though. When Jesus was raised up b the Spirit we do not read that is the same means we are raised, although the Spirit washes us when we are baptized. The water doesn't wash us.

Originalist · #38 12-01-2014, 05:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by obriencp

Romans 6:4-5 ...what raised Jesus up from the dead? The Glory of the Father. I propose that the Glory of the Father is the Holy Spirit, not water baptism. Just as we are to be burried with him (water baptism) we are also to be resurrected with him (spirit).

Romans 8:5-11

also a number of verses in John equate the spirit to life.

Spot on! In fact Romans 6 says we are baptized in order that we may too live a new life, just as Christ was raised by the glory (Spirit) of the Father.

And the only thing that can give a new life is God's Spirit, the same thing that raised Christ from the dead. It was our estrangement from God's Spirit that brought spiritual death to begin with. It is puzzling to me that anyone can't see this. Yes, we are baptized in order that we may live a new life, but baptism itself does not give us that life, only God's Spirit can do that.

mfblume · #39 12-01-2014, 05:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Originalist

Spot on! In fact Romans 6 says we are baptized in order that we may too live a new life, just as Christ was raised by the glory (Spirit) of the Father.

And the only thing that can give a new life is God's Spirit, the same thing that raised Christ from the dead. It was our estrangement from God's Spirit that brought spiritual death to begin with. It is puzzling to me that anyone can't see this. Yes, we are baptized in order that we may live a new life, but baptism itself does not give us that life, only God's Spirit can do that.

Exactly. But who said that was Spirit baptism? The Spirit forgives us when we repent, too, you know. But that doesn't mean we're filled with His Spirit.

Originalist · #40 12-01-2014, 05:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mfblume

Exactly. But who said that was Spirit baptism? The Spirit forgives us when we repent, too, you know. But that doesn't mean we're filled with His Spirit.

You are creating a new 3 step teaching. We disagree with Trinitarians who claim we are first born of the Spirit and then later baptized in the Spirit. We point out that Acts simply says folks had not yet received the Spirit, not an act of the Spirit. You are saying that the Spirit cleanses at baptism but does not stay? And then has to be asked to return at Spirit baptism? How does one remain quickened by the Spirit if he did not stay after they were cleansed by him at baptism? He is the quickening agent. Quickening is not just something he does, it is something he is.

One is born of the water (really the Spirit) and then born of the Spirit?