born of water

[thephnxman]

Originally Posted by jfrog

John 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
John 3:8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
What the "baptism and spirit filled required for the new birth believers" confess is that only "being born of the Spirit" makes one half-born again. Yet, Jesus spoke of those "born of the Spirit" as if they were fully born again. How can that be?

We should read the full context in the scriptures.

If someone at point A asked how to get from point A to point C, and was told that he must pass through point B: would you suppose that he went through point B, if you later saw that same person at point C?

"He that is born of the flesh is flesh; and he that is born of the Spirit is spirit." Jesus must have known that to get from the flesh to the Spirit, a person must pass through the waters (obedience)!

[obriencp]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Water is water baptism and regeneration is Spirit baptism. It's a combination work written there. Water baptism and spirit baptism are considered as accompanying words to sanctify not one on its own in this context.

did you mean to say "washing is water baptism and regeneration is Spirit baptism" ?

If you're implying that washing in this passage = water baptism and regeneration = spirit baptism, your interpretation of Titus 3:5 would be "...but according to his mercy he saved us, by the 'water baptism' of 'Spirit Baptism,' and renewing of the Holy Ghost"

This seems to be both inconsistent and redundant.

maybe i misunderstood your reply?

I see that passage as two ways of describing the same event/moment when the Spirit comes into/onto a person... washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Ghost. I don't understand it as a regenerative water baptism event and a separate moment of Spiritual renewing.

[obriencp]

Originally Posted by Originalist

Amen. The UPCI's official stance is that water baptism is not associated with regeneration.

I'm by no means an expert, but certain faiths believe that the spirit comes automatically upon water baptism right? Would those be considered baptismal regenerationalists? ... would Catholics and Baptists believe in baptismal regeneration? I'm asking because I really don't know.

[Originalist]

Originally Posted by obriencp

did you mean to say "washing is water baptism and regeneration is Spirit baptism" ?

If you're implying that washing in this passage = water baptism and regeneration = spirit baptism, your interpretation of Titus 3:5 would be "...but according to his mercy he saved us, by the 'water baptism' of 'Spirit Baptism,' and renewing of the Holy Ghost"

This seems to be both inconsistent and redundant.

maybe i misunderstood your reply?

I see that passage as two ways of describing the same event/moment when the Spirit comes into/onto a person... washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Ghost. I don't understand it as a regenerative water baptism event and a separate moment of Spiritual renewing.

Right on!!

[Hesetmefree238]

The new birth discourse in John 3 has greater emphasis on the born of the spirit or spirit birth. This seems to be where the emphasis is in this passage. Jesus, in fact goes into a description of likening the Spirit to the wind that blows. Whether water refers to water baptism or it is synonymous with born of the flesh in the following verse is insignificant to me in regards to baptism being a part of the plan of salvation. There are enough other scriptures to justify the necessity of water baptism.

[Esaias]

Washing of regeneration. If washing refers to water baptism then water baptism is part of regeneration. It is not all of regeneration, but it is part of it.

If born of water means water baptism, then water baptism is PART of the new birth.

Israel was "baptised into/unto Moses" in the cloud and the sea. We are "baptised into/unto Christ" ... the parallel should be obvious. Thus, water baptism and Spirit baptism are two components if "regeneration". Historically, this was NEVER DISPUTED until the Nicene period when the Spirit baptism element faded out and was replaced by Chrismation, as far as I have been able to tell. Since the Apostasy had lost Spirit baptism, they moved ALL of regeneration to water baptism. Then the Reformers and Anabaptists and Baptists - Protesting Catholics - in rejecting popery often went to the doctrine of "regeneration comes before water baptism". The Reformed camp went so far as to claim regeneration came before belief, faith, repentance, or even hearing the gospel!

Anyway, a person must be born of water and Spirit. Since "a person" has already been born once, to be born of water and Spirit is to be born "again" or "anew".

[mizpeh]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Washing of regeneration. If washing refers to water baptism then water baptism is part of regeneration. It is not all of regeneration, but it is part of it.

If born of water means water baptism, then water baptism is PART of the new birth.

Israel was "baptised into/unto Moses" in the cloud and the sea. We are "baptised into/unto Christ" ... the parallel should be obvious. Thus, water baptism and Spirit baptism are two components if "regeneration". Historically, this was NEVER DISPUTED until the Nicene period when the Spirit baptism element faded out and was replaced by Chrismation, as far as I have been able to tell. Since the Apostasy had lost Spirit baptism, they moved ALL of regeneration to water baptism. Then the Reformers and Anabaptists and Baptists - Protesting Catholics - in rejecting popery often went to the doctrine of "regeneration comes before water baptism". The Reformed camp went so far as to claim regeneration came before belief, faith, repentance, or even hearing the gospel!

Anyway, a person must be born of water and Spirit. Since "a person" has already been born once, to be born of water and Spirit is to be born "again" or "anew".

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Washing of regeneration. If washing refers to water baptism then water baptism is part of regeneration. It is not all of regeneration, but it is part of it.

If born of water means water baptism, then water baptism is PART of the new birth.

Israel was "baptised into/unto Moses" in the cloud and the sea. We are "baptised into/unto Christ" ... the parallel should be obvious. Thus, water baptism and Spirit baptism are two components if "regeneration". Historically, this was NEVER DISPUTED until the Nicene period when the Spirit baptism element faded out and was replaced by Chrismation, as far as I have been able to tell. Since the Apostasy had lost Spirit baptism, they moved ALL of regeneration to water baptism. Then the Reformers and Anabaptists and Baptists - Protesting Catholics - in rejecting popery often went to the doctrine of "regeneration comes before water baptism". The Reformed camp went so far as to claim regeneration came before belief, faith, repentance, or even hearing the gospel!

Anyway, a person must be born of water and Spirit. Since "a person" has already been born once, to be born of water and Spirit is to be born "again" or "anew".

[Hesetmefree238]

I don't believe in baptismal regeneration. Regeneration is a rebirth of the inner man. If water baptism regenerated a man, then everyone who is baptized would come up a regenerated new creature in Christ. We know this isn't true. A person can go down in the water a sinner and come up a wet sinner. Simon the magician in Acts 8 is an example of this as his heart was not right with God even though he had recently been water baptized. Regeneration is the birth of the Spirit, which is the old man being transformed into a new creature with the new life of the Spirit of Christ.

[mizpeh]

Originally Posted by Hesetmefree238

I don't believe in baptismal regeneration. Regeneration is a rebirth of the inner man. If water baptism regenerated a man, then everyone who is baptized would come up a regenerated new creature in Christ. We know this isn't true. A person can go down in the water a sinner and come up a wet sinner. Simon the magician in Acts 8 is an example of this as his heart was not right with God even though he had recently been water baptized. Regeneration is the birth of the Spirit, which is the old man being transformed into a new creature with the new life of the Spirit of Christ.

Basically you are building and attacking a strawman.

1) What you mean by baptismal regeneration and what most of us here mean is probably something very different. We are not Roman Catholics.

2) I agree with you that regeneration is a rebirth of the inner man.

3) No one says that water baptism is the be all and end all of regeneration in Christ.

4) One goes down in the water a sinner and back out of the water a sinner, without any change whatsoever IF it is not done in faith. But if it is done in faith in Jesus Christ then he will go down in the water buried with Christ and come up out of the water risen with Christ...the metaphor. Down in the water laden with a dirty conscience, up out of the water with the circumcision of the Spirit, the removal of the body of sin/a cleansed conscience...the reality. In water baptism the old man is buried and the new man is risen to become transformed into the image of Christ. All of this is done by the Spirit of Christ who does not have to be "indwelling" to do the work but does have to inhabit the cleansed dwelling to complete the new birth.