"in the Spirit"

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Anyone who has ever experienced travailing intercessory prayer knows that praying in the spirit is not limited to praying in tongues. Perhaps not enough people have experienced genuine travailing intercessory prayer, so the only praying in the spirit they know is tongues?

Are you saying that in "travailing intercessory prayer", you probably won't always speak in tongues? Because, I don't see how that could happen when the Spirit of the Lord is present.

[mizpeh]

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

Are you saying that in "travailing intercessory prayer", you probably won't always speak in tongues? Because, I don't see how that could happen when the Spirit of the Lord is present.

Here is a scripture that lets us know that deep spiritual prayer doesn't have to include speaking in tongues.

Likewise the Spirit helps us in our weakness. For we do not know what to pray for as we ought, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words. Romans 8:26

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by mizpeh

Here is a scripture that lets us know that deep spiritual prayer doesn't have to include speaking in tongues.

Likewise the Spirit helps us in our weakness. For we do not know what to pray for as we ought, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words. Romans 8:26

Too deep for our own articulate words? That is when the Spirit takes over, in my experience, and then it is no longer my articulate words, the Spirit is doing the work at that point. At least, that has been my experience and my understanding.

[mizpeh]

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

Too deep for our own articulate words? That is when the Spirit takes over, in my experience, and then it is no longer my articulate words, the Spirit is doing the work at that point. At least, that has been my experience and my understanding.

But this scripture speaks about the take over of the Spirit in prayer as "groans" which cannot be put into words. Groans are not the same as other tongues. I'm not saying that the Spirit doesn't pray through us in other tongues because clearly in 1 Cor 14: 14, He does, BUT the Spirit also prays through us without words coming out of our mouths but in groans. I've experienced that. So can you see how perhaps "praying in the Spirit" doesn't necessarily have to be "praying in tongues"? The Spirit can pray through us in different ways and is not limited to only tongues.

26 In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness. We do not know what we ought to pray for, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us through wordless groans. NIV

26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.KJV

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

Are you saying that in "travailing intercessory prayer", you probably won't always speak in tongues? Because, I don't see how that could happen when the Spirit of the Lord is present.

Sister, I am saying that just because a person isn't praying in tongues it doesn't mean they aren't praying in the spirit. I make no claims about everyone. What YOU do when the spirit comes upon you in travailing prayer may not be exactly what someone else does. You may erupt in tongues and another may be prophesying, and yet another may do both or neither.

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Sister, I am saying that just because a person isn't praying in tongues it doesn't mean they aren't praying in the spirit. I make no claims about everyone. What YOU do when the spirit comes upon you in travailing prayer may not be exactly what someone else does. You may erupt in tongues and another may be prophesying, and yet another may do both or neither.

I don't see that in scripture. We are simply trying to establishment that travailing doesn't have to include tongues, and I don't see any strong evidence to agree with that view.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

I don't see that in scripture. We are simply trying to establishment that travailing doesn't have to include tongues, and I don't see any strong evidence to agree with that view.

You and brother Blume have asserted that praying in the spirit is ONLY and ALWAYS praying in tongues. There is no scripture that says that. There is no scripture that NECESSITATES that conclusion. Therefore there is no scriptural basis for dogmatically asserting that if a person is not praying in tongues, they are not praying in the spirit.

Furthermore, as I pointed out, the ONLY scripture speaking about the subject of praying and tongues does NOT say "praying with the spirit is always in tongues". It doesn't even say "praying with the spirit is praying in tongues" without the "always". What it does say is very specific - if I pray in tongues my spirit prays but my understanding is unfruitful. That's all it says. Guess what? If I speak in tongues my spirit speaketh but my understanding is unfruitful. Should I therefore conclude that if a person is NOT speaking in tongues they are not speaking in, by, or with the spirit? Of course not.

If people wish to build their doctrine on their personal experience and subjective opinions without regard to the ACTUAL TEXT then I guess have at it. It's what the entire denominational world does, so why not, right?

As for me, I will stick with the Bible.

[Esaias]

Ephesians 6
18 Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints;
19 And for me, that utterance may be given unto me, that I may open my mouth boldly, to make known the mystery of the gospel.

Here we are commanded to pray with ALL prayer and supplication "in the spirit". If praying in the spirit always and only means in tongues, then here is proof that we are to ONLY pray in tongues. But that is obviously not true. Notice we are to watch unto praying in the spirit making supplication for all saints. Paul wanted the brethren at Ephesus to include praying for him and his ministry. THIS COULD NOT BE OBEYED IF ALL PRAYING IN THE SPIRIT IS IN UNKNOWN TONGUES. Therefore, praying in the spirit is not limited to praying in tongues.

[Aquila]

Here's a question:

If "praying in the Spirit" is always "praying in tongues"... does this mean that when we pray in English... we're not in the Spirit?

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Aquila

Here's a question:

If "praying in the Spirit" is always "praying in tongues"... does this mean that when we pray in English... we're not in the Spirit?

You're praying with the understanding when in your native language.