"in the Spirit"

[shazeep]

and you personally have seen fruit from this? Ty.

[KeptByTheWord]

Originally Posted by shazeep

and you personally have seen fruit from this? Ty.

I have seen lots of "praying in the spirit in tongues" from people who got up from their place of prayer not demonstrating any fruit of the spirit, but fruit of the flesh. Sickening really, and that is what gives "tongue-talkers" such a bad name, in my opinion. Too many have figured out how to speak a few words "in tongues", but their heart has never undergone a spiritual transformation.

However, I do know that there is a deep spiritual level of the heart that can be transformed by spending time in prayer, and in speaking in tongues. But... the outward fruit of such prayer is more the evidence that one has been in the spirit than the prayer itself, in my opinion.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by mizpeh

What about those saints who have not spoken in tongues since their initial infilling...those who do not have the gift of tongues? Does that mean that they can never pray in the Spirit?

I do not believe a person has been filled with the Spirit if they did not speak in tongues. Paul spoke of praying in the Spirit in the same manner I believe the Apostles spoke of Holy Ghost baptism. It's meant for everyone. He spoke of prayer in tongues, which is the entire context of 1 Cor 14, as something everyone should do. However, not everyone has yet received the Spirit..

That's just the way I see it. I cannot see infilling without tongues, personally.

[mfblume]

1 Corinthians 14:14-15 For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful. (15) What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.

The context above shows praying in tongues to be something in which our understanding is unfruitful. IOW, praying WITH understanding is not praying in tongues. We cannot even understand what we are praying, ourselves, when we pray in tongues.

Notice he said HIS SPIRIT is praying when he prayed in tongues. That is what must be carried over into the next verse when we read about [praying in the spirit. He said that was contrasted from his understanding. So, if he prayed in tongues and his spirit prayed and his understanding was unfruitful, then the next verse speaking about praying in the SPIRIT is praying in tongues! And praying with the understanding is contrasted from praying in tongues, and refers to praying with understanding which means praying in our native language. We can understand our own native language. We see that by contrasting praying with understanding from praying in spirit. So, praying in the spirit cannot refer to praying in our native language. Context disallows that in these two verses.

[mizpeh]

Originally Posted by mfblume

I do not believe a person has been filled with the Spirit if they did not speak in tongues. Paul spoke of praying in the Spirit in the same manner I believe the Apostles spoke of Holy Ghost baptism. It's meant for everyone. He spoke of prayer in tongues, which is the entire context of 1 Cor 14, as something everyone should do. However, not everyone has yet received the Spirit..

That's just the way I see it. I cannot see infilling without tongues, personally.

That's not what I mean. I'm not talking about an initial infilling of the Spirit with the evidence of tongues but afterward, there are those who don't speak in tongues again, imo, because they don't have the gift of tongues. So if one spoke in tongues when they initially received the baptism of the Holy Spirit but never speak in tongues again, then how can they pray in the Spirit if praying in the Spirit always consists of speaking in other tongues?

I think I made that more clear.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by mizpeh

That's not what I mean. I'm not talking about an initial infilling of the Spirit with the evidence of tongues but afterward, there are those who don't speak in tongues again, imo, because they don't have the gift of tongues.

I do not believe a person needs the gift of tongues to continue to speak in tongues after they received the Spirit. I do not have the gift of tongues, but I speak in tongues all the time in prayer. The gift of tongues is only for use with an interpretation to follow, from what I see laid out in scripture.

So if one spoke in tongues when they initially received the baptism of the Holy Spirit but never speak in tongues again, then how can they pray in the Spirit if praying in the Spirit always consists of speaking in other tongues?

I think I made that more clear.

I get your point. But according to 1 Cor 14, and the 2 verses I quote earlier, I believe a person simply is not praying in the spirit if they are not praying in tongues.

[Esaias]

The context of the verse in question is the meeting, and Paul says that we are to prefer prophesying to tongues. He does not limit "in the spirit" to only unknown tongues as the surrounding verses show.

Nowhere is praying in the spirit defined as "praying in tongues". Although praying in tongues is praying in the spirit, the reverse is not true.

For example: Although all genuine miracles are works of the Spirit, not all works of the Spirit are miracles. Although all prophesying is speaking in the Spirit, not all speaking in the Spirit is prophesying.

So the apostle rightly states that if he prays, sings, or speaks in tongues, then he is praying, singing, and speaking in the spirit, because all those activities are done "in the spirit". But it would be an error to say all speaking, praying, or singing in the spirit must necessarily be in tongues.

Further, "my spirit prays but my understanding is unfruitful" does not mean ALL praying in the spirit is unintelligible, otherwise it would mean all praying that is understandable is done WITHOUT THE SPIRIT, which is absurd. For if that were true, no praying would be useful or acceptable unless it was wholly in unknown tongues! What he is saying is plain: if he prays in tongues he is praying in the spirit, BUT his understanding is unfruitful.

Notice the ONLY passage in all the bible that talks about praying in tongues is in the heart of a teaching on the superiority of prophesying to tongues, surrounded by instructions for tongue-talker to PRAY FOR INTERPRETATION.

[Esaias]

Ephesians 5
18 And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit;
19 Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord;
20 Giving thanks always for all things unto God and the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ;
21 Submitting yourselves one to another in the fear of God.

Here the apostle commands us to be filled with the spirit, and gives several key identifying marks of being spirit-filled: speaking to one another in song; expressing thanks to God through Jesus; and submitting to one another in godly reverence. While these are not the only signs of being spirit-filled, they were important enough to be listed. Praying in tongues obviously was NOT important enough to be listed there.

[Esaias]

Anyone who has ever experienced travailing intercessory prayer knows that praying in the spirit is not limited to praying in tongues. Perhaps not enough people have experienced genuine travailing intercessory prayer, so the only praying in the spirit they know is tongues?

[Esaias]

Ephesians 6
18 Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints;
19 And for me, that utterance may be given unto me, that I may open my mouth boldly, to make known the mystery of the gospel.

Here we are commanded to pray with ALL prayer and supplication "in the spirit". If praying in the spirit always and only means in tongues, then here is proof that we are to ONLY pray in tongues. But that is obviously not true. Notice we are to watch unto praying in the spirit making supplication for all saints. Paul wanted the brethren at Ephesus to include praying for him and his ministry. THIS COULD NOT BE OBEYED IF ALL PRAYING IN THE SPIRIT IS IN UNKNOWN TONGUES. Therefore, praying in the spirit is not limited to praying in tongues.