Original Sin

[Sean]

But when a fully mature person understands the requirement to be born again to be saved, they must act accordingly(whatever age that may be).


There are 10 year olds that are more mentally mature than some 30 year olds in some cases.

[thephnxman]

Originally Posted by Lafon

I must disagree!
1) Death implies an event from which there are NO avenue or means of recovery ... PERIOD! "Spiritual" implies having a mindset towards the things of God.
If it were true that Adam "died spiritually" when God imposed the judgment of death upon his physical body (Genesis 3:19), then the question arises,
2) Who informed Cain and Abel of the commandment to offer a sacrifice to God upon an altar for sin. There are NO scriptural texts that discloses God or any other ever making these sons of Adam aware of this requirement, therefore common logic allows one to conclude that they were instructed in it by Adam. If he were "dead spiritually" he could not have instructed them in the way of righteousness.
3) Furthermore, to conclude that Adam "died spiritually," which would be the same as stating that God also judged him unworthy of eternal life, serves to negate Peter's words of 2 Peter 3:9 - "The Lord is not ... willing that ANY should perish, but that ALL should come to repentance."

Very Good!

1) There was only the commandment that brought forth the curse of death: '...dying,
you shall die..."; and Adam eventually died. However, God did not "separate" Himself
from Adam, for He sought and called for Adam.

2) Cain and Abel indeed heard of the testimony in the garden: and the most important
part was that Adam and Eve came under the curse of death, and that God had clothed them
(covered their sin).

"the altar of sin": there was no sacrifice...for sin. Abel's sacrifice was a confession
that he ,ALSO, would die and that he needed a sacrificial covering by God.
You see, Abel
believed his father's testimony in the garden!

3) Man was only meant to die physically, not spiritually. God had already made provision
for man's redemption:
Gen. 1:3__"And God said, 'Let there be light'..."
Jn. 1:4__"In the beginning was the word...in him was life, and the life was the light of men."

[Sean]

Sin breaks communion with God, this separation is "spiritual", thus it is a type of death.(spiritual death).

Guys, you realize we were once dead in our trespasses and sins right?...

Ephesians 2
2 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,

5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)

6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:


This looks "spiritually" dead to me.(definitely not physically)

Prior to our conversion, we were the walking dead

[Lafon]

Originally Posted by Sean

Sin breaks communion with God, this separation is "spiritual", thus it is a type of death.(spiritual death).

Guys, you realize we were once dead in our trespasses and sins right?...

Ephesians 2
2 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,

5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)

6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:


This looks "spiritually" dead to me.(definitely not physically)

Prior to our conversion, we were the walking dead

Sean, IF sin "broke communion" between man and God, then just how is it possible for sinful man to communicate with God? No, sin does NOT sever all lines of communication with God, else man, being conceived in sin, is damned from the very moment he exits his mother' womb!

If it were true, as you've stated, that sin brings about a "break" in communion with God, then how do you explain Adam "hearing the voice of the LORD God walking in the garden" AFTER he had sinned? What hope are you leaving for the likes of you and I when we sin, and we do at times despite our best efforts otherwise, that God will hear our cry for forgiveness?

You are making our God out to be a "one sin and you're out" Judge, and that He definitely is NOT! If such were the case then He would never have robed Himself in human flesh, experienced its death so that sinful man might have the only thing He would accept as an atonement for their sin, that is, His pure blood.

What sin brought into existence in Adam's case, was to disrupt the "harmonious" relationship between himself and God which he had enjoyed up to that moment when he willfully sinned. And it is the same for you and I

Did Adam and Eve ever communicate again with God after being cast from the garden at Eden? Absolutely! Did not God communicate with Cain, who sinned by slaying his brother Abel? Yes!

Why have you completely neglected to take into consideration the definitions I've provided for "death" and "spiritual"? The words of II Samuel 14:14 advises that "death" is likened to water that is spilt on the ground: it simply CANNOT be gathered up again. Such is it with death. One experiences death, and there is no possible recovery from it! That is why God, who alone has POWER over all things, including death, was made likened unto sinful flesh, so that through death He gained victory over it for us.

By asserting, or even suggesting that Adam "died spiritually" when God imposed the judgment of death upon his fleshly body, is the very same thing as sentencing him to hell's fire! The truth is, the Bible does not tell us whether Adam was ever reconciled to God, although I suspect that he was. Nevertheless, neither you nor I, or any other is his judge, so lets not be so hasty in casting him into the devil's furnace!

[shazeep]

well, Sean, that has always been my thinking, but they have given me something to ponder there...good points, Lafon, Phoenix...

[Lafon]

Sean, Paul's words of Ephesians 2:2 & 5, that is, the phrases "who were dead in trespasses and sins" and "we were dead in sins," are what we refer to as "figures of speech," a word or phrase for one thing that is used to refer to another thing in order to show or suggest that they are similar.

If Paul was stating that we were truly "DEAD," then what possible way would the likes of you and I ever had to even come to an understanding of our lost condition or to petition God for forgiveness? Are the dead capable of thought, speech, or the ability to speak? Of course not! So we see we were NOT literally "dead" in our sins, else we would have been rendered utterly incapable of even knowing that we were lost sinners!

[Lafon]

Originally Posted by shazeep

well, Sean, that has always been my thinking, but they have given me something to ponder there...good points, Lafon, Phoenix...

shazeep, Sometimes we ALL (me included) are too quick to read a particular scriptural passage and form an opinion of what we think it states, and this without pausing to "chew" it for a bit. I've discovered that when I just stop and really examine each word, carefully comparing what is being expressed with other passages wherein the same thing is mentioned, and only then allowing myself to form an opinion, it is far better than simply "jumping to a conclusion"!

I'm happy to discover that you've elected to "ponder" this matter more carefully. Reminds me of a quote I read long ago - It is good to pause from time to time and take a close "second look" at the things I was most assured of at "first glance."

[shazeep]

yup!

[thephnxman]

Originally Posted by Sean

Sin breaks communion with God, this separation is "spiritual", thus it is a type of death.(spiritual death).
Guys, you realize we were once dead in our trespasses and sins right?...

Ephesians 2
2 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)
6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
This looks "spiritually" dead to me.(definitely not physically)
Prior to our conversion, we were the walking dead

"...the soul that sins shall die.

This speaks of the judgment of sin, which is death. The Law of Sin and Death is still active: so
every man that sins automatically incurs the judgment of death. Does death always occur
immediately? Sometimes. But we must remember that the Law of Mercy is also in
effect: and that "...mercy rejoices against judgment." It is God's mercy that withholds His
judgment: "And the times of this ignorance God winked at (turned his face away from our sin);
but now commands all men everywhere to repent:..." When God shows mercy, we do not
[immediately] receive the just recompense of the punishment due for our sins.

Yes, we who have believed and obeyed were once subject to the Law of Sin and Death: but
now, after having been looked upon with mercy, have we received grace, and are made
"...partakers of the heavenly gift."

[Sean]

Originally Posted by Lafon

Sean, IF sin "broke communion" between man and God, then just how is it possible for sinful man to communicate with God? No, sin does NOT sever all lines of communication with God, else man, being conceived in sin, is damned from the very moment he exits his mother' womb!

Lafon, as a sinner or Christian, when we choose to sin and live in sin, we dont want to be confronted by God about it. That is how communion is broken by sin.
We realize we must repent and stop sinning or the Lord will not allow us into His good graces.


If it were true, as you've stated, that sin brings about a "break" in communion with God, then how do you explain Adam "hearing the voice of the LORD God walking in the garden" AFTER he had sinned? What hope are you leaving for the likes of you and I when we sin, and we do at times despite our best efforts otherwise, that God will hear our cry for forgiveness?



The gift of repentance. 2 Tim 2:5 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;





You are making our God out to be a "one sin and you're out" Judge, and that He definitely is NOT! If such were the case then He would never have robed Himself in human flesh, experienced its death so that sinful man might have the only thing He would accept as an atonement for their sin, that is, His pure blood.

What sin brought into existence in Adam's case, was to disrupt the "harmonious" relationship between himself and God which he had enjoyed up to that moment when he willfully sinned. And it is the same for you and I

Did Adam and Eve ever communicate again with God after being cast from the garden at Eden? Absolutely! Did not God communicate with Cain, who sinned by slaying his brother Abel? Yes!

Why have you completely neglected to take into consideration the definitions I've provided for "death" and "spiritual"? The words of II Samuel 14:14 advises that "death" is likened to water that is spilt on the ground: it simply CANNOT be gathered up again. Such is it with death. One experiences death, and there is no possible recovery from it! That is why God, who alone has POWER over all things, including death, was made likened unto sinful flesh, so that through death He gained victory over it for us.

By asserting, or even suggesting that Adam "died spiritually" when God imposed the judgment of death upon his fleshly body, is the very same thing as sentencing him to hell's fire! The truth is, the Bible does not tell us whether Adam was ever reconciled to God, although I suspect that he was. Nevertheless, neither you nor I, or any other is his judge, so lets not be so hasty in casting him into the devil's furnace!

Lafon, I believe Adam was probably saved, but lost his communion with God as the Lord intended because of sin. Im sure Adam and Eve repented, which put them back in Gods' good graces. However, the walk in the garden became a thing of the past.
However, the issue at hand I was speaking of is inherent sin.(from the fall of man).
The gift of repentance is connected to grace for sinners from day 1.
If an unrepented sinner does not repent, they naturally will not want to communicate with God, because God requires repentance 1st.
This is my definition of how sin breaks communion with God.