Apostolic But Not Believing Jesus is The Father?

[Pastor DTSalaz]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

Exactly. No one is in "Apostolic Oneness" who rejects that Christ is both the Father and the Son.

This is a unique faith in the world and as to this particular truth the more Biblical.

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

Exactly. No one is in "Apostolic Oneness" who rejects that Christ is both the Father and the Son.

This is a unique faith in the world and as to this particular truth the more Biblical.

I Don't think it's rejecting that Jesus is both Father and Son. It is that Jesus is the son in whom the Father dwelt. That is why Jesus could say;

John 14. 9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?

10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.

We know exactly which things were done through his humanity. It is when he did those things that boggle the mind that it comes into question....

Luk 8:25 And he said unto them, Where is your faith? And they being afraid wondered, saying one to another, What manner of man is this! for he commandeth even the winds and water, and they obey him.

BTW Christ is the name used exclusively of Jesus not of the Father.

[Pastor DTSalaz]

Originally Posted by elder_brother

I'm just wondering, from this perspective does any real distinction exist between the Father & the Son? Furthermore, if Jesus Christ is both Father & Son then does a Father and a Son really exist?

Would you be able to affirm that both the Father and the Son are of One divine essence?

Sometimes we try to prove our oneness to the point that we eliminate the distinctions. We mesh the three into one and the purpose that each one has. This is allowing the Trinitarian to hijack certain terms fearing any distinctions as proof of the Trinity. Paul understood the purpose of each one and would use each in the appropriate context of his writings.

Truth or ?
Jesus is the Father
Jesus is the Son
Jesus is the Holy Ghost

Regarding God's essence we say He is holy which is separate from all creation. God is a Spirit which is immaterial. The term or title father is a term of endearment which denotes relationship. How does this title relate in regards to God? Is he a father because he has a Son or for some other reason. The Trinitarian knows that Jesus wasn't called the son before his incarnation. In the beginning was the Word. So how then does the term son relate to God? What does belong to the divine essence? Is it a material thing?

[Pastor DTSalaz]

Originally Posted by Jermyn Davidson

Jesus is the Father.
Jesus is the Son.
Jesus is the Holy Ghost.
All Three are One.

Classical Oneness point of view, right?

But aren't there Oneness Pentecostals who don't believe like this?

Jesus is the name given to the Son of God. This name embodies the fullness of the Godhead in bodily form.

Colossians 2.9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

Yet Paul in his address starts out using the distinctions. Because he understood them he was not afraid to state them without it affecting his monotheistic heritage.

Colossians 1.2 To the saints and faithful brethren in Christ which are at Colosse: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

3 We give thanks to God and the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, praying always for you,

He understood the humanity of "our Lord Jesus Christ" and the divinity that united with the flesh who he also calls Him "God and Father of". Paul uses God denoting his unchanging nature, that of his divine essence it forever remains the same. Yet in his manifestation He is Father of the only begotten. We are created and can be filled with the Holy Ghost, Jesus is begotten which in essence gives him the same DNA spiritually fully being one with his Father. That same God from whom his unique origin comes from.

Paul States "We give thanks to God". He then qualifies this statement with "and Father". We obviously can grasp the revelation of God in his operation of being the Father of "our Lord" once again qualifying and equating Him yet showing his distinction of "Jesus Christ". Jesus the man who is qualified by the term Christ in Greek which is the same as the Messiah in Hebrew. The anointed one.

He then goes on urging the Colossians to be filled with the knowledge of his will and increasing in the knowledge of God.

1.9 For this cause we also, since the day we heard it, do not cease to pray for you, and to desire that ye might be filled with the knowledge of his will in all wisdom and spiritual understanding;

10 That ye might walk worthy of the Lord unto all pleasing, being fruitful in every good work, and increasing in the knowledge of God;

Then he describes his revelation.

12 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:

13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son: note

14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:

15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. note

19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by thephnxman

That is one of the most correct statements that I have heard in quite awhile.
Most folks lean to "God the son": believing that the body, itself, is God;

The part I put in bold is 100% rubbish. Nobody believes his body is God and to be more specific Trinitarians who use that term "God the Son" do NOT mean by that "His body is God"

You don't really know what other people believe

You seem to be under the mistaken impression that the word "Son" means "body" and that therefore to say "God the Son" means "God the body"

That is not what others believe.

[thephnxman]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

The part I put in bold is 100% rubbish. Nobody believes his body is God and to be more specific Trinitarians who use that term "God the Son" do NOT mean by that "His body is God"
You don't really know what other people believe
You seem to be under the mistaken impression that the word "Son" means "body" and that therefore to say "God the Son" means "God the body"
That is not what others believe.

Please enlighten me. Are you saying that the "body" is not the son? Or perhaps that the "Word"
is the son? When God sent the word into the world, did He send the son or the word? And to
whom was "...a body hast thou prepared..."?

[J.A. Perez]

Originally Posted by thephnxman

Please enlighten me. Are you saying that the "body" is not the son? Or perhaps that the "Word"
is the son? When God sent the word into the world, did He send the son or the word? And to
whom was "...a body hast thou prepared..."?

With all due respect,

I can't speak for anyone else, but the way I understood what he had a problem with if you read the highlighted quote is, The Flesh was not God, Because God did not Die.

If we understand Oneness theology correctly, we under stand that God took on the form of a man made of a woman. Another words God took on the office of a son. One Person took on a different role or office.

John 1:1 describes the Plan of God before the world began (Logos) The thought the idea and the concept.
1. In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."

Galatians 4:4 describes the fulfilment of the plan when the Logos took on life, the plan that God would manifest himself though human flesh.
"4. but when the fullness of time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,"

Please remember Jesus and the Father are the exact same Mono-Genus. Jesus own words, John 10:30 "I and my Father are One."

Jesus is the Father.

[Pastor DTSalaz]

Originally Posted by Steve Epley

Jesus was ALL God and ALL man. Only the Father is GOD so if He was Divine He had to be God the Father.

Could our understanding be that we try to equate God=Father when in fact Father is God in action. Only God= God and Father is a manifestation of one aspect of God as we see Him. The term father is a term for our minds to grasp a finite understanding of of an immeasurable God. We would not say in the same way we say God is a Spirit that God is a Father for being Spirit is the totality of what God is and Father is just one aspect of who God is. This would make God is a Son null and void unless there is truth in each statement. This is without being polytheistic or trying to make three separate persons fit into one God.

So when you say only the Father is God is that an absolute truth. Can this be a true statement the Son is God? Or the Holy Spirit is God? Now with that in mind we should not be trying to prove that Jesus is the Father rather that Jesus is God and the Father is a title of God in time. We can only know of God through His self revelations (multiple) in time and matter though he lives outside of creation yet all creation is in Him.

[J.A. Perez]

Originally Posted by Pastor DTSalaz

Could our understanding be that we try to equate God=Father when in fact Father is God in action. Only God= God and Father is a manifestation of one aspect of God as we see Him. The term father is a term for our minds to grasp a finite understanding of of an immeasurable God. We would not say in the same way we say God is a Spirit that God is a Father for being Spirit is the totality of what God is and Father is just one aspect of who God is. This would make God is a Son null and void unless there is truth in each statement. This is without being polytheistic or trying to make three separate persons fit into one God.

So when you say only the Father is God is that an absolute truth. Can this be a true statement the Son is God? Or the Holy Spirit is God? Now with that in mind we should not be trying to prove that Jesus is the Father rather that Jesus is God and the Father is a title of God in time. We can only know of God through His self revelations (multiple) in time and matter though he lives outside of creation yet all creation is in Him.

I think Elder Epley was very clear, you cannot call any one God, unless they are all God. If Jesus was not all God then he is not God at all.

Whatever title you place, Father, Son, Spirit, Wonderful, counselor, prince of peace, there is only one name.
Jesus name!
He is all in all, it's not complicated.

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by thephnxman

Please enlighten me. Are you saying that the "body" is not the son? Or perhaps that the "Word"
is the son? When God sent the word into the world, did He send the son or the word? And to
whom was "...a body hast thou prepared..."?

Well let me begin by asking some questions to make you think some.

Is your savior a body or a person?

Did someone die for you or did something?

My answer...My savior is a Person. Someone died for my sins.

The Son is a PERSON and He has a Human body

[mfblume]

Jesus was the word who DWELT among us. That means TABERNACLED in the Greek. This relates the concept that His body IS THE TEMPLE or TABERNACLE.