Is the Bible all you need for your morality?

[J.A. Perez]

2nd Timothy 3:16-17

[Sean]

Originally Posted by J.A. Perez

With all due respect,

If you do not see a Pastor as a Man of God, as related to the 5-fold ministry. I cannot argue the point.

In my opinion it is very clear that what God did in the old Testament with the "Seer/Prophet" was a combined 5 fold ministry in one man. Just like at times when the spirit moves on my pastor he works in the role as a shepherd/pastor and others he works in the office as a teacher, then at times works in the spirit of an evangelist, and in oversight and management of the various ministries in the local church he works toward growth as an Apostle.

I understand that the Man of God in the Old Testament is a type and shadow of the men that now fill New Testament 5 Fold Ministry.

Sincerely,
J.A. Perez

Brother, I would like to see that verse for myself please...

[Sean]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sean View Post
Brother, I have been in Apostolic/Pentecost for 35plus years.


I kinda gave up propping up a manna God and became one myself. I never found one that taught perfect truth, so I had to be MY OWN man of God to keep from being led astray or parroting the administrations' false teachings.

I think that is the intention of the Holy Ghost for mankind. (when the man gets out of the way and Jesus becomes our Man of God).

Now that I am a Man of God(for myself), I train others to put Jesus, alone as their priest or Man of God. This makes my role as a servant/ teacher and spiritual equal to the new believer. I spend my efforts making THEM into saints or men of God that are dependent on Jesus ONLY, not me.
The "MannaGod" concept that we have been taught, such as the mediatory role between man and God is derived from Old Testament stories that are not relevant to the role of the N.T. believer today. Case in point....In the Old Testament, the "folks" had priests to go to God for them, but in the N.T., we ALL are priests because our bodies are the temples when we receive the Spirit.
Therefore, every believer should be trained in their role as priests unto their God, not to serve an O.T. priest type on earth(aka pastor)






With all due respect,

This is a prime example of why you need a pastor.

Please explain how you view the story of Cornelius the man of God Devout, gave much alms, prayed to God always, and feared God with all his house, and was in tuned in enough to the Spirit to see visions. But he needed a Pastor. That's why God sent Peter because he was not saved.
Acts 10:1-3

Sincerely
,
J.A. Perez




Bro. Perez, the current system is flawed regarding pastorial heirarchy and actually originated in Catholicism.
That is why Catholics are so easily converted to our system.
The PRIEST is replaced by the PASTOR as their mediatorial spiritual advisor, allowing carnal man to take the place of their savior. Folks are trained to run to their pastor in their dillema's and not to their Lord Jesus.
You know why the ministry of Catholics and Protestants DEMAND this role in the lives of the believer???

POWER AND MONEY!!!

If you made them volunteer their services and become servants, instead of being served and lauded by saints, they would most entirely quit ministering(with the exception of few).



This concept of mine was actually what Jesus taught to his disciples.

[Sean]

Case in point...


Acts 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.

30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.

31 Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears.

32 And now, brethren, I commend you to God, and to the word of his grace, which is able to build you up, and to give you an inheritance among all them which are sanctified.

33 I have coveted no man's silver, or gold, or apparel.

34 Yea, ye yourselves know, that these hands have ministered unto my necessities, and to them that were with me.

35 I have shewed you all things, how that so labouring ye(overseers) ought to support the weak, and to remember the words of the Lord Jesus, how he said, It is more blessed to give than to receive.(overseers giving to the saints here)

[shazeep]

Originally Posted by Sean

If you made them volunteer their services and become servants, instead of being served and lauded by saints, they would most entirely quit ministering(with the exception of few).



This concept of mine was actually what Jesus taught to his disciples.

Amen to that; but trust that you have just described the real pastors out there, who are many. And no one made them, either!

[Sean]

These days, I see the weak supporting the overseers!!!

[thephnxman]

Originally Posted by J.A. Perez

With all due respect,
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
In my opinion it is very clear that what God did in the old Testament with the "Seer/Prophet" was a combined 5 fold ministry in one man. Just like at times when the spirit moves on my pastor he works in the role as a shepherd/pastor and others he works in the office as a teacher, then at times works in the spirit of an evangelist, and in oversight and management of the various ministries in the local church he works toward growth as an Apostle.
I understand that the Man of God in the Old Testament is a type and shadow of the men that now fill New Testament 5 Fold Ministry.
Sincerely, J.A. Perez

If the Lord will use a single individual to fulfill the 5-fold ministry, why name the 5 offices?

The Lord instituted ONE ministry in 5 offices. They are designed to COMPLEMENT one another,
and to SUBMIT one to another.
A pastor is NOT called to be the highest entity in the ministry.
Furthermore, there is a major difference between being used in the "gifts", and occupying one
or more offices! For example: the "gift of prophecy" does not constitute a prophet (ministry):
but a prophet must necessarily exercise the "gift of prophecy".

[thephnxman]

Originally Posted by n david

1) Cornelius did not have a vision, he saw an Angel of the Lord
2) Peter had the vision of the unclean animals
3) The purpose of Peter going to meet with Cornelius is not because Cornelius needed a Pastor.
The purpose of Acts 10 was to fulfil what Jesus said in Acts 1:8 - to be witnesses in "in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth." Until Acts 10, the Holy Ghost had only fallen on Jews. Cornelius was the first Gentile filled with the Holy Ghost.
The reason God sent Peter to Cornelius was to show the Holy Ghost and salvation was for Gentiles also.
Again, nothing to do with needing a Pastor.

Very good.

[KeptByTheWord]

Originally Posted by J.A. Perez

With all due respect,

If you do not see a Pastor as a Man of God, as related to the 5-fold ministry. I cannot argue the point.

In my opinion it is very clear that what God did in the old Testament with the "Seer/Prophet" was a combined 5 fold ministry in one man. Just like at times when the spirit moves on my pastor he works in the role as a shepherd/pastor and others he works in the office as a teacher, then at times works in the spirit of an evangelist, and in oversight and management of the various ministries in the local church he works toward growth as an Apostle.

I understand that the Man of God in the Old Testament is a type and shadow of the men that now fill New Testament 5 Fold Ministry.

Sincerely,
J.A. Perez

I too am wondering where you are finding the type and shadow of the OT "man of God" that is specifically referenced in the NT as being a fulfillment of the NT ministry.

Nowhere in the OT do I see the prophet Isaiah, Jeremiah, or any of the rest of them, ruling over a group of people, taking their "tithe", and telling them how to live, and making sure they come to their church every Sunday. How is the OT prophet an extension of the NT ministry?

Simple answer - it's not. Jesus is our High Priest, and he is the Head of the body of Christ, the church. Those who minister in the body are not elevated above other parts of the body, but they are able to provide support, and help to encourage, strengthen, and help the body function together as a body. Nowhere in Paul's illustrations about the ministry do we see any man being given a role that would allow him to be a dictator over any part of the body of Christ.

Ministry is servanthood in the simplest way of explaining it. Study out the word minister, or ministry sincerely and be honest with yourself in the results you find.

What you have believed all along about the ministry has been taught to you by your "man of God' and it most likely has simply been a twist of scriptures to prop up their ministry and their kingdom building, and not the kingdom God.

[J.A. Perez]

Originally Posted by Sean

Brother, I have been in Apostolic/Pentecost for 35plus years.


I kinda gave up propping up a manna God and became one myself. I never found one that taught perfect truth, so I had to be MY OWN man of God to keep from being led astray or parroting the administrations' false teachings.

I think that is the intention of the Holy Ghost for mankind. (when the man gets out of the way and Jesus becomes our Man of God).

Now that I am a Man of God(for myself), I train others to put Jesus, alone as their priest or Man of God. This makes my role as a servant/ teacher and spiritual equal to the new believer. I spend my efforts making THEM into saints or men of God that are dependent on Jesus ONLY, not me.


The "MannaGod" concept that we have been taught, such as the mediatory role between man and God is derived from Old Testament stories that are not relevant to the role of the N.T. believer today. Case in point....In the Old Testament, the "folks" had priests to go to God for them, but in the N.T., we ALL are priests because our bodies are the temples when we receive the Spirit.
Therefore, every believer should be trained in their role as priests unto their God, not to serve an O.T. priest type on earth(aka pastor)

I am not trying to debate as if everyone here is wrong and I am right. I haven’t had time to respond to the your statements individually. I bolded them and will answer to the best of my ability.

God has always given me a pastor after his heart. Sincere men that have done their best. They have not all been perfect but have all been fair. I am sorry that you have not been given that from God. I on the other hand am a blessed man, God has been good to me. My pastor bailed me out of jail, let me live with him and his dear old wife, preached Calvary to me, preached me into the altar, Baptized me in Jesus name, prayed that God would and did fill me with the Holy Ghost, helped me get enrolled back in school, got me an apartment next to the church, taught me personal bible study on church off nights, gave me money for food, paid my rent, was a shoulder to cry on, later, Baptized my brother, baptized my wife and prayer her thru to the Holy Ghost, helped me pay my mortgage, gave me money to buy diapers, dedicated my kids, prayed my kids thru to the Holy Ghost, Baptized them, counseled my marriage, corrected me when I was wrong, shown me a way that is called straight, Preached the Devil off my back and heavens blessing down, walked the floor night after night until my heard head would receive correction, taught me to abstain from evil taught me the why's of living righteous and to not love the world, and most of all he has preached the Gospel to me and my family. Tithing is well earned and so minor in the light of all he has done. I hope one day he buys the finest truck money could buy and the finest house on the market. He deserves it, he has also done the same for countless others in our local assembly. This story of mine started 19yrs ago.

I am for the Pastor!
There is no higher authority in the local church than he.
J.A.Perez