Why I am Now Convinced of a Pre-Trib Rapture

[Sean]

Lap dog, where are you????

Help, chase Sean off with your insults!!!!

Get em, sick em...LOL

[mfblume]

Sean, you won't explain anything I am about to write, whereas we've answered all your questions you ever asked. And if you still say we are not answering your question about Rev 21, I already told you months ago and you forgot.

Sean, why do you act as though we never answered you?

Why, Sean, why? Why do you keep repeating that we are not answering what you ask about Rev 21, when I gave you the link for our answer and wrote all about it months ago? Why do you do that?

Sean, you claim the city is literal city. And John said it was the bride. You cannot answer if Jesus has two brides and is a polygamist -- marrying the church and a literal city.

Can you just picture one of His brides?/// errr.... city.... (whatever!)... with a wedding gown on. She's a tall lady, too. 12,000 furlongs high! I guess if oysters can make pearls as big as a gate to walk through, someone can make wedding gowns 12,000 furlongs high. But the little lady (not so little I guess) is larger than any bride I ever saw!

And notice the GOLD is see-through! They say pure gold is see-through, but I've seen gold 99.999% pure and it 1/1000th of impurity taken out would make it go from totally opaque to transparent, which must be true in your universe, Sean, then it all makes sense.

Mortar, gold street, jasper walls, foundations of twelve different sets of precious stones. All in a wedding gown!

And Jesus is literally a lamb with seven eyes and horns. And don't forget the seven churches that were turned into candlesticks in Chapter 1 inside John's cave on Patmos. And the angels of the churches were placed in Jesus' right hand and were turned into stars. Sean insists it's all literal!

The there's the seven headed dragon and its ten horns. It's all literal, Sean demands!

So, the LAMB'S WIFE is a 12,000 furlong high and wide and long city and the groom is a lamb with seven eyes and horns.

And like you just mentioned LAST DAYS are not really last days at all but 1/3 of the entire amount of time since Adam.... 2,000 years.

But then if that's the case how in the world did DAYS become CENTURIES? That's not very literal! You want the city to be literal, and the the sword coming from Jesus' mouth to be literal, but you do not literalize the last DAYS because you make them centuries!

You want so many literal things, but when John wrote the events were AT HAND and you say that means thousands of years that is not very literal! When John said the events were to shortly come to p[ass, it's not very literal to say that means thousands of years. So your doctrine is hypocritical. It mocks people who realize the visions are figurative but you make AT HAND and SHORTLY COME TO PASS and LAST DAYS figurative. that is called hypocrisy.

And what about the time you said we are already at the city and it is invisible and all around us, and yet it is physical can you explain how something physical is invisible and all around us right now? And if we already came to the city and it is invisible, how in the world does it also COME OUT OF THE SKY IN THE FUTURE?


So, please explain to us how we are already at the city and it's invisible but it's physical nevertheless and somehow will come out of the sky even though it's all around us now!

[Sean]

You saw my posts Mike...LOL

The bride is INSIDE the city.

First the place of abode of the bride is described.

The bride is finally revealed in verses 24 and afterwards.

You poor souls failed to read verses 24 onwards and got all mixed up, thinking the city was the bride.

Then after you went around teaching it, you are ashamed to face the fact the bride is inside the city, walking in it.

Poor mixed up preterists...

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Sean

You saw my posts Mike...LOL

The bride is INSIDE the city.

That is not what John wrote!

Rev 21:2 KJV And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

John did not see INSIDE THE CITY. He saw the CITY IN THE SKY and the CITY was adorned like a bride. Not anybody inside. And if he would have looked inside, he would have seen MANY PEOPLE. How can a crowd of people wear one single wedding gown, anyway, though? So, either way you are confused about everything about this vision.

THE CITY is the bride.

Rev 21:9-10 KJV And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife. (10) And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,


After John was said he'd be shown the wife, he was shown the city. Not anyone INSIDE the city. He says NOTHING about seeing people inside the city. Nothing.

First the place of abode of the bride is described.

No, it says the bride herself was shown. Not the abode of the bride. Where does John say the city was the ABODE of the bride? Chapter and verse.

The bride is finally revealed in verses 24 and afterwards.

Where:

Rev 21:24-27 KJV And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it. (25) And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there. (26) And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it. (27) And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

Where is the bride shown in those verses? All i see are nations that come to the city to bring honour to it. They're not occupants of the city. They come to "IT". IT is the bride. IT Is the city. Where is the bride called people in those verses?

You poor souls failed to read verses 24 onwards and got all mixed up, thinking the city was the bride.

You said it is all literal. So that demands the city is the bride. Show me one sentence in these verses from 24 onward that mentions the bride is people.

Then after you went around teaching it, you are ashamed to face the fact the bride is inside the city, walking in it.

Poor mixed up preterists...

You complain about insults from Bro B and then you make insults yourself.

Show us where the PEOPLE ARE THE BRIDE IN verses 24 onward.

Waiting.

[mfblume]

Sean, you said these words:

Originally Posted by Sean

Yes Mike, we ARE come to this invisible city. ABSOLUTELY...
We just cannot see it because it is heavenly!!!

http://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com...6&postcount=45


How can we be at the invisible city if we're on earth and it comes down from heaven in the future? You said we are come to it!

Rev 21:2 KJV And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

You just said it's here right now but is invisible. How can it be here and yet have to still come down out of heaven?

Rev 21:10 KJV And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,

There it says the same thing again.

Also, how can it be invisible and yet be physical?

That is utter nonsense.

Here's what else you wrote:

Originally Posted by Sean

I guarantee that when we die or are raptured, we WILL physically see these invisible things that we cannot see now though!!!

http://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com...8&postcount=46

Why do we have to be raptured to see a city that is now invisible? How is the rapture going to change our sight so that invisible physical things today are visible then? And you say the rapture will take us to heaven, not leave us in the earth.

So, if we already came to the invisible city and we're here on earth with it, but it's invisible, how are we going to "leave" the earth to be able to see what is "down here on earth" where we already are, and yet is going to come down to earth out of heaven later? We have to LEAVE something that is invisibly all around us NOW before we can SEE IT?

Is it going to race us to heaven when the rapture takes place and suddenly become visible. That'll be some fast hopping city, if we're in it now and it's invisible on earth and we are raptured in a twinkling of an eye but yet it beats us to heaven. Not only that, it beats us to heaven and then turns around and comes back out of and then turns right around to come back down to earth , and all that before we even get to heaven in the rapture!!!! Wow, that is one moving city!

And how is the rapture going to make us see something that is already physical if we cannot see it now? How can something be physical and invisible at the same time?

You cannot answer any of these these questions. But will revert to lies about us again concerning Rev 21.

Then you said more nonsense:

Originally Posted by Sean

We, the church are surrounded by the invisible realities!!!

http://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com...1&postcount=47

How can something PHYSICAL be an invisible reality now? If it's PHYSICAL WE CAN SEE IT, and it cannot invisible. So, explain to us how we wil see something that is physical but currently invisible and yet we're surrounded by it right now.

And again, how can we LEAVE THE EARTH in the rapture to see something that we're al;ready surrounded with now?

And how can we be surrounded with it now if it has not even come out of the heaven yet?

You cannot answer any of these questions because you know they're absolutely ridiculous and nonsensical.

You believe we're surrounded by a physical city but it's invisible. Yet you believe we will leave the earth , which means we have to leave the invisible city that is surrounding us right now, so we can see the invisible city later! But we leave it to see it? And you believe we're in the city that is surrounding us now, that is physical and invisible, and yet it is also going to come out of heaven to the earth, but yet it's supposed to be already on earth surrounding us now.

That is most nonsensical stuff I ever heard. And you try to make us look silly? lol

Hooboy!

[Sean]

Rev 21:24-27 KJV And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it. (25) And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there. (26) And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it. (27) And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

Where is the bride shown in those verses?
The folks that are worthy to enter into the city ARE the bride Mike.

All i see are nations that come to the city to bring honour to it. They're not occupants of the city. They come to "IT". IT is the bride. IT Is the city. Where is the bride called people in those verses?

Their not the occupants? Where do you get that? It looks like they can stay there as long as they wish.
The gates of the city are never shut and opened to all. (Unless theres a curfew for visitors...LOL)




You said it is all literal. So that demands the city is the bride. Show me one sentence in these verses from 24 onward that mentions the bride is people.





You complain about insults from Bro B and then you make insults yourself.

Show us where the PEOPLE ARE THE BRIDE IN verses 24 onward.

Waiting.[/QUOTE]



Okay, here it is...

23 And the city(place) had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it(place): for the glory of God did lighten it(place), and the Lamb is the light thereof.(place)

24 And the nations(people or nationalities) of them which are saved(saved saints) shall walk in the light of it(place): and the kings(saved people....kings and priests, Rev 5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.) of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.(place)

25 And the gates of it(place) shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.

26 And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations(saved people) into it.

27 And there shall in no wise enter into it(place) any thing that defileth,(people) neither whatsoever worketh abomination,(people) or maketh a lie:(people) but they(saved people) which are written in the Lamb's book of life.



Well, the last time I checked, the Church is comprised of saved people.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Sean

Rev 21:24-27 KJV And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it. (25) And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there. (26) And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it. (27) And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

Where is the bride shown in those verses?
The folks that are worthy to enter into the city ARE the bride Mike.

If these people who come to the city are the bride and enter into it, then how could it be in heaven first and then come down and be called the bride before they even have a chance to enter it afterwards when it is on the earth?: They only enter it on earth/. It comes from heaven. It goes to earth. And before anyone comes to it, John was told IT WAS THE BRIDE. If the people INSIDE are the bride, and they do not even enter into it until AFTER it comes to earth, then how could John be told the bride is in heaven coming down in the city if the bride is not in it yet?

[mfblume]

Sean, rev 21 says it was called the bride before the nations on earth entered into it. If the people enter into it and are called the bride, why was John told it was the bride before it came to earth while coming down to earth from heaven with no one in it?

[mfblume]

The reality of this vision is that the CITY called the bride in John's VISION. The city is a symbol of the church people. Heb 12:22 says we already came to the heavenly city. We came to the BODY OF CHRIST.

And it comes out of heaven because the Church is not of this world.

The city's gates are opened because anyone can come and get saved today!

The gates are pearl because the pearl of great price is entrance into the church of the living God by the blood of Jesus.

The street is gold because GOLD stands for deity. And the bible says the STEPS of a good man ARE ORDERED BY THE LORD. We walk a divine walk. Like walking on gold. We walk after the Spirit. The highway of holiness.

The CITY stands for the PEOPLE.

Isa 60:14 KJV The sons also of them that afflicted thee shall come bending unto thee; and all they that despised thee shall bow themselves down at the soles of thy feet; and they shall call thee, The city of the LORD, The Zion of the Holy One of Israel.

THE PEOPLE are called the CITY!

Does a city have feet?

Jesus called the church A CITY SET HIGH ON A HILL that lights the world.

Mat 5:14 KJV Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid.

The nations of the saved people come to the city and receive light from it. The church is the light of the world. the city is the church, the bride.

The twelve foundations are not literal. They have the names of the apostles because the church is built on the foundation of the prophets and apostles.

The gates have tribes of Israel's names on them because when we enter the CHURCH, we JOIN ISRAEL'S COVENANT and become spiritual Jews right aside Paul and Peter and the other Jews to whom the gospel went first before it went to the greeks and gentiles.

The precious stones represent the church members.

Mal 3:17 KJV And they shall be mine, saith the LORD of hosts, in that day when I make up my jewels; and I will spare them, as a man spareth his own son that serveth him.

We are the peculiar treasure to God! Jewels.

And this is all proved by this verse, that YOU ADMIT means the city is all around us now. But that is because it is the CHURCH!

Heb 12:22-23 KJV But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, (23) To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

Mock it and mock me all you wish, but it is precious, precious truth to me, and I hold it dear to the Lord for showing me these precious revelations that are witnessed by the rest of the scriptures..

As the NATIONS come to the CITY, gentiles come to the church and the church is the Israel that is a light top lighten the gentiles.

Compare:

Isa 49:3 KJV And said unto me, Thou art my servant, O Israel, in whom I will be glorified.

God calls his servant ISRAEL.

Isa 49:6 KJV And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth.

He says ISRAEL is the light to the gentiles.

Act 13:46-47 KJV Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles. (47) For so hath the Lord commanded us, saying, I have set thee to be a light of the Gentiles, that thou shouldest be for salvation unto the ends of the earth.

The CHURCH is the one commanded to be the light to the gentiles, and the apostles interpret Isaiah 49:6 to refer to them in the CHURCH as that light. That makes the church the true Israel of God in God's eyes!

Rev 21:24-25 KJV And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it. (25) And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.

Just like Isaiah 49 said, the GENTILES (which is the same word as NATIONS in the Greek) get their light from the ISRAEL OF GOD, the CHURCH (where Israel in Isa 49:6 was proved to be the church in Acts 13:47). And when these NATIONS/GENTILES come to the CHURCH, they find the GATES OPEN because salvation is here for anyone. And when they ENTER THEY BECOME THE SPIRITUAL ISRAEL like all the rest of us already are in the church.

Rev 21:24-25 is a direct reference to Isaiah 49:6. JESUS IS THE LIGHT and we are the church through whom Jesus shines, making us the light of the world.

God is in Christ, so we read God is the glory and Christ is the light of that glory, and the church is the candle holding the light of God in Christ to the lost GENTILE world of sinners so they can walk through the gates with Israel's name on them and BE TURNED INTO THE SPIRITUAL ISRAEL like we were! That's why the GATES have Israel's tribes names on them! you become the Israel of God when you enter the church by salvation after seeing it's light!

Anyone with a lick of the Holy Ghost will witness with this.

[Sean]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Sean, rev 21 says it was called the bride before the nations on earth entered into it. If the people enter into it and are called the bride, why was John told it was the bride before it came to earth while coming down to earth from heaven with no one in it?

Simple.... to show John the bride, he had to first describe the brides' hangout. Then the bride was shown.

Just be patient next time you read it bro. You will see the bride eventually. Chill and read. Dont jump to conclusions and read the whole chapter.