Why I am Now Convinced of a Pre-Trib Rapture

[Sean]

Mike, these guys posted that some preterists say the white throne judgement was in 70ad, and others' say it was in 1070ad as described here. I just wonder if you agree with them.

http://revelationrevolution.org/

If so or if not, please elaborate....thanks

[mfblume]

Sean, I just told you! lol

Originally Posted by mfblume

I believe, like I've said many times, that the great white throne judgment is future. But the city is here now and it's growing. Revelation 21-22 shows it's completion after judgment with no more saved like they're being saved now. But it's still the church and not an actual city.

[Originalist]

Originally Posted by Sean

Please notice that I offer very little commentary in the following passage. I will not try to "brainwash" you with commentaries of my beliefs, like the preterists do.......


...3 QUESTIONS HERE

This is the worldwide, end of age part.


This is the dispersion of Jews part. ad70

This was a warning to be watching, particularly Israel and the saints of God in the last days of the Last days events to precede the rapture and tribulation.


NOW HERE IS HIS DISCOURSE OF THE RAPTURE...


That is how ALL 3 questions are answered by the Lord. You guys blended it all together into the part of the Jews being dispersed only....This is what I call logical eschatology.(Notice, that I use very little commentary?). I showed you something easily understood, the way the gospel should be understood....simply

My rebuttal will be simple, appealing to simple grammatical construction....

Jesus starts his discourse speaking of a sorrowful time that is to come preceding his coming....

4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.

5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.

7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.

8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.

So we have sorrowful time that includes deception by false Christs, wars and nations rising against nations, etc. But then Jesus tells us more things that will happen at this time of sorrows...

In verse 9 he says…..Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.

Notice the word “Then” in this verse. “Then” is a pronoun, a word that takes the place of a noun. Every pronoun has an antecedent, which is the noun that the pronoun is replacing. It is found “ante” or before the pronoun in the discourse or sentence. So what is the “then” Jesus is referring to in verse 9 describing a time when men shall betrayed, delivered up, afflicted, hated and killed for their allegiance to the name of Christ? The answer is very simple. Look for the antecedent, which is this sorrowful time described in verses 5-8. Simple grammar. It’s a continual grammatical flow. This also applies to verses 10-14…

10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.

11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.

12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.

13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved..

14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

The pronoun “then” in verses 9 and 10 share the same antecedent. The continual use of the word “and” in verses 10-14 connect them to verse 9, which I’ve already proven to be connected to the sorrowful time described in verse 5-8. The grammatical river is flowing along nicely thus far.

Then, in verse 15, Jesus tells us what launches this time of sorrow…..

When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand

The word therefore is key here. It is backward looking, describing everything mentioned in verses 5-14 as a consequence of what happens in verse 15. The Abomination of Desolation launches this time of sorrows mentioned in verses 5-14, also known as the Great Tribulation…

16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:

18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.

19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!

20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

Again we see the pronoun then pointing back to its antecedent found in verse 15, the Abomination of Desolation. Jesus is clearly talking about the same period of time in verses 5-22. The basic grammar dictates this.

Jesus continues on….

23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.

24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

25 Behold, I have told you before.(in the previous verses, starting with verse 5, thus proving once again that Jesus is referring to the same period of time)

26 Wherefore (because they were told before in the previous verses) if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.

27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.

Verses 25-27 also prove that this whole discourse is talking about one period of time, the events immediately leading up to the coming of Christ and our gathering unto him. Notice in verse 25 he reminds them that he has already warned them about false Christs. He did this in verse 5. Therefore, verse 5 is connected to verses 26-27 which are telling us how to distinguish between false Christs and the real Christ, and the way we know the difference is how we see Christ at his second coming. This eliminates the possibility that, as you put it, verses 4-8 and verses 5-9 are describing separate periods of time.

Continuing…..

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Notice the pronoun “then” in verse 30. The antecedent for "then" is the time immediately after the tribulation when supernatural, destructive cosmic events begin to happen. The son of man returns at this time and his saints are gathered.

Simple grammatical rules have proven that Jesus is referring to the same period of time from verses 5-31.

Of verses 36-51 you said…..

NOW HERE IS HIS DISCOURSE OF THE RAPTURE.

..

It appears that you are saying that the events in verses 36-51 are distinct from and happen prior to the events described in verses 29-31. Again, simple grammar will prove otherwise with no difficulty. Look at verse 36….

But of that dayand hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

Ah, another one of those pesky, inconvenient pronoun that requires an antecedent!

Notice the pronoun “that (day)” in verse 36. What day? We must find the antecedent to know and the nearest antecedent is found in verses 30-31…..

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

“That day” in verse 36 is none other than the day that Jesus returns found in verses 30-31. To say otherwise is to ignore grammar. It will not work. This is also true of verses 37-51. The pre-trib doctrine falls without a whimper by simple grammar.

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by Originalist

My rebuttal will be simple, appealing to simple grammatical construction....

Jesus starts his discourse speaking of a sorrowful time that is to come preceding his coming....


So we have sorrowful time that includes deception by false Christs, wars and nations rising against nations, etc. But then Jesus tells us more things that will happen at this time of sorrows...

In verse 9 he says…..Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.

Notice the word “Then” in this verse. “Then” is a pronoun, a word that takes the place of a noun. Every pronoun has an antecedent, which is the noun that the pronoun is replacing. It is found “ante” or before the pronoun in the discourse or sentence. So what is the “then” Jesus is referring to in verse 9 describing a time when men shall betrayed, delivered up, afflicted, hated and killed for their allegiance to the name of Christ? The answer is very simple. Look for the antecedent, which is this sorrowful time described in verses 5-8. Simple grammar. It’s a continual grammatical flow. This also applies to verses 10-14…



The pronoun “then” in verses 9 and 10 share the same antecedent. The continual use of the word “and” in verses 10-14 connect them to verse 9, which I’ve already proven to be connected to the sorrowful time described in verse 5-8. The grammatical river is flowing along nicely thus far.

Then, in verse 15, Jesus tells us what launches this time of sorrow…..



The word therefore is key here. It is backward looking, describing everything mentioned in verses 5-14 as a consequence of what happens in verse 15. The Abomination of Desolation launches this time of sorrows mentioned in verses 5-14, also known as the Great Tribulation…



Again we see the pronoun then pointing back to its antecedent found in verse 15, the Abomination of Desolation. Jesus is clearly talking about the same period of time in verses 5-22. The basic grammar dictates this.

Jesus continues on….


Verses 25-27 also prove that this whole discourse is talking about one period of time, the events immediately leading up to the coming of Christ and our gathering unto him. Notice in verse 25 he reminds them that he has already warned them about false Christs. He did this in verse 5. Therefore, verse 5 is connected to verses 26-27 which are telling us how to distinguish between false Christs and the real Christ, and the way we know the difference is how we see Christ at his second coming. This eliminates the possibility that, as you put it, verses 4-8 and verses 5-9 are describing separate periods of time.

Continuing…..



Notice the pronoun “then” in verse 30. The antecedent for "then" is the time immediately after the tribulation when supernatural, destructive cosmic events begin to happen. The son of man returns at this time and his saints are gathered.

Simple grammatical rules have proven that Jesus is referring to the same period of time from verses 5-31.

Of verses 36-51 you said…..

..

It appears that you are saying that the events in verses 36-51 are distinct from and happen prior to the events described in verses 29-31. Again, simple grammar will prove otherwise with no difficulty. Look at verse 36….



Ah, another one of those pesky, inconvenient pronoun that requires an antecedent!

Notice the pronoun “that (day)” in verse 36. What day? We must find the antecedent to know and the nearest antecedent is found in verses 30-31…..



“That day” in verse 36 is none other than the day that Jesus returns found in verses 30-31. To say otherwise is to ignore grammar. It will not work. This is also true of verses 37-51. The pre-trib doctrine falls without a whimper by simple grammar.

Thanks for your labor in the word

[Sean]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Sean, I just told you! lol

Thanks Mike, so you dont agree with those preterists that posted that?

[Sean]

Originally Posted by Sean

Originally Posted by Sean View Post
Mike,Do you agree with this...

Revelation 20:11 Commentary: The Destruction of Heaven and Earth . . .

Verse 11 says that the “[e]arth and sky fled from his [God’s] presence, and there was no place for them.” This verse depicts the destruction of heaven and earth. This incidence of the destruction of heaven and earth is not likely to be the same one mentioned in Revelation 6:12-14 during the fall of Jerusalem in A.D. 70 as many preterists often suppose[xxii] since vs. 1-7 mention a thousand year period after the binding of Satan in v. 2. As stated above, Satan is bound during the aftermath of the Jewish war with Rome and released one thousand years later according to v. 7. Therefore, this incidence of the destruction of heaven and earth seems to have occurred one thousand year after the binding of Satan around the time of the Jewish War.


https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...83829542,d.cGU




Mike, do you agree with this.

I gotta know.

Just a yes or no.

Is the passage in Rev. 20 "really" speaking of the Jews and temple passing away?

Like this...

11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth(Jews) and the heaven(temple) fled away; and there was found no place for them.(Jews and temple)

Please tell me yes or no if you view it this way.





Mike, this is the most important thing I have heard about preterism in 2 years.

I know there are different levels of preterism, but is this(statement above) correct?

Is verse 11 about the Jews and Temple?

Mike, this is the most important thing I have heard about preterism in 2 years.

I know there are different levels of preterism, but is this(statement above) correct?

Is verse 11 about the Jews and Temple?


Mike, this question is for you alone, nobody else.

Here it is again...are these guys wrong then Mike?

If so, then please show us how they got it wrong....thanks.

To be specific, is your preterism different than their preterism?

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Sean, I just told you! lol

Does Sean know how to read?

How many times would you tell this to our old friend the good elder?

It is like we have been here before?

The only thing is the good elder was a tad smarter than Sean.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Sean

Thanks Mike, so you dont agree with those preterists that posted that?

You win a cookie Sean.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

You win a cookie Sean.

[mfblume]

Sean, I believe partial preterism. You're forgetting quite a lot in the last few days.