What's your AUTHORITY?

[votivesoul]

Originally Posted by Esaias

I am beginning to think Oneness Pentecostalism, as a movement, is dead in the water, for failing to grow.

But 'let the Church roll on!' I am being forced to a conclusion, that God is moving on and the OP movement in general is not.

Maybe I'm just having a bad day. Might be the cell towers today. I dunno??? lol

I've thought this way for at least a year now. I had dream in which I was in a very lavish home. Like multi-million dollar mansion, palace kind of lavish home. A house party was going on, and people everywhere were drinking themselves stupid. I tried talking people out of doing so, warning them of the dangers to their brains (i.e. once brain cells die, they don't/can't regenerate). No one would listen.

I found myself in another opulent room. Just as I walked in, a man passed out, his head literally exploding into vomit. It was disgusting. The resultant pool on the floor was like 12 feet across.

I ran out of there looking for someone who would know how to clean up the mess. I found someone, who was cleaning in a library like area, and began to explain what was going on.

That was the end of the dream. I prayed and the Lord's response was "the tables are full of vomit" from Isaiah 28:

1 Woe to the crown of pride, to the drunkards of Ephraim, whose glorious beauty is a fading flower, which are on the head of the fat valleys of them that are overcome with wine!
2 Behold, the Lord hath a mighty and strong one, which as a tempest of hail and a destroying storm, as a flood of mighty waters overflowing, shall cast down to the earth with the hand.
3 The crown of pride, the drunkards of Ephraim, shall be trodden under feet:
4 And the glorious beauty, which is on the head of the fat valley, shall be a fading flower, and as the hasty fruit before the summer; which when he that looketh upon it seeth, while it is yet in his hand he eateth it up.
5 In that day shall the Lord of hosts be for a crown of glory, and for a diadem of beauty, unto the residue of his people,
6 And for a spirit of judgment to him that sitteth in judgment, and for strength to them that turn the battle to the gate.
7 But they also have erred through wine, and through strong drink are out of the way; the priest and the prophet have erred through strong drink, they are swallowed up of wine, they are out of the way through strong drink; they err in vision, they stumble in judgment.
8 For all tables are full of vomit and filthiness, so that there is no place clean.
9 Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts.
10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:
11 For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.
12 To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear.
13 But the word of the Lord was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.
14 Wherefore hear the word of the Lord, ye scornful men, that rule this people which is in Jerusalem.
15 Because ye have said, We have made a covenant with death, and with hell are we at agreement; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, it shall not come unto us: for we have made lies our refuge, and under falsehood have we hid ourselves:
16 Therefore thus saith the Lord God, Behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation a stone, a tried stone, a precious corner stone, a sure foundation: he that believeth shall not make haste.
17 Judgment also will I lay to the line, and righteousness to the plummet: and the hail shall sweep away the refuge of lies, and the waters shall overflow the hiding place.
18 And your covenant with death shall be disannulled, and your agreement with hell shall not stand; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, then ye shall be trodden down by it.
19 From the time that it goeth forth it shall take you: for morning by morning shall it pass over, by day and by night: and it shall be a vexation only to understand the report.
20 For the bed is shorter than that a man can stretch himself on it: and the covering narrower than that he can wrap himself in it.
21 For the Lord shall rise up as in mount Perazim, he shall be wroth as in the valley of Gibeon, that he may do his work, his strange work; and bring to pass his act, his strange act.
22 Now therefore be ye not mockers, lest your bands be made strong: for I have heard from the Lord God of hosts a consumption, even determined upon the whole earth.
23 Give ye ear, and hear my voice; hearken, and hear my speech.
24 Doth the plowman plow all day to sow? doth he open and break the clods of his ground?
25 When he hath made plain the face thereof, doth he not cast abroad the fitches, and scatter the cummin, and cast in the principal wheat and the appointed barley and the rie in their place?
26 For his God doth instruct him to discretion, and doth teach him.
27 For the fitches are not threshed with a threshing instrument, neither is a cart wheel turned about upon the cummin; but the fitches are beaten out with a staff, and the cummin with a rod.
28 Bread corn is bruised; because he will not ever be threshing it, nor break it with the wheel of his cart, nor bruise it with his horsemen.
29 This also cometh forth from the Lord of hosts, which is wonderful in counsel, and excellent in working.

I knew the Lord was talking to me about the Pentecostal movement. Since then, I have, in some ways, distanced myself from the idea of being a "Pentecostal" because I don't want to be associated with the movement, if the movement looks like Isaiah 28 to Jesus.

[votivesoul]

Originally Posted by Esaias

You gave seven DOCTRINES. Now demonstrate your AUTHORITY for those doctrines?

How do arrive at those doctrines? What METHOD did you use to come to those seven conclusions?

See what I am asking?

I see. I used these texts from the Holy Scriptures, as follows:

1.) Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the Living God.

Matthew 16:15-19, John 3:36, 1 John 2:22, 1 John 5:1 & 20

2.) God raised Jesus from the dead.

Romans 10:9-13

3.) We must be born again through the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ, a.k.a. the Gospel.

John 3:3-7, 1 Corinthians 15:1-4

4. Salvation is by grace through faith in Jesus Christ, and not of works.

Ephesians 2:8-9

5. We need to love God and one another, i.e. the 1st and 2nd Commandments

Mark 12:29-32

6. We need to love Jesus at His appearing, i.e. maintain our blessed hope.

1 Corinthians 16:22, Titus 2:13

7. The Bible is the final authority for faith and practice.

2 Timothy 3:16-17

All of the verses given above are positive affirmations of what we have to believe in order to be saved and/or stay saved. They are, in effect, commandments given to us by God, Christ, or the Holy Spirit through an Apostle.

Jesus is the foundation of all that we are (1 Corinthians 3:11). With Jesus as the cornerstone are apostles and prophets (Ephesians 2:20-22).

Therefore, anything that either the cornerstone, or those who make up the foundation of New Jerusalem command and teach, becomes automatically necessary for faith and practice.

The above seven items are given as the bare minimum, as I felt led to share them. I may be wrong, knowing I am not the final authority on what God considers His bare minimum. But in my knowledge of the Bible, I can't think of any other passage of Scripture that clearly demands more than the 7 things above in order to be saved.

[votivesoul]

Originally Posted by votivesoul

I see. I used these texts from the Holy Scriptures, as follows:

1.) Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the Living God.

Matthew 16:15-19, John 3:36, 1 John 2:22, 1 John 5:1 & 20

2.) God raised Jesus from the dead.

Romans 10:9-13

3.) We must be born again through the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ, a.k.a. the Gospel.

John 3:3-7, 1 Corinthians 15:1-4

4. Salvation is by grace through faith in Jesus Christ, and not of works.

Ephesians 2:8-9

5. We need to love God and one another, i.e. the 1st and 2nd Commandments

Mark 12:29-32

6. We need to love Jesus at His appearing, i.e. maintain our blessed hope.

1 Corinthians 16:22, Titus 2:13

7. The Bible is the final authority for faith and practice.

2 Timothy 3:16-17

All of the verses given above are positive affirmations of what we have to believe in order to be saved and/or stay saved. They are, in effect, commandments given to us by God, Christ, or the Holy Spirit through an Apostle.

Jesus is the foundation of all that we are (1 Corinthians 3:11). With Jesus as the cornerstone are apostles and prophets (Ephesians 2:20-22).

Therefore, anything that either the cornerstone, or those who make up the foundation of New Jerusalem command and teach, becomes automatically necessary for faith and practice.

The above seven items are given as the bare minimum, as I felt led to share them. I may be wrong, knowing I am not the final authority on what God considers His bare minimum. But in my knowledge of the Bible, I can't think of any other passage of Scripture that clearly demands more than the 7 things above in order to be saved.

I guess I would add 2 Peter 1:5-10 as the means whereby, once a person is saved, they will always remain saved. So, please allow me to amend my list to 8 items.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by votivesoul

I guess I would add 2 Peter 1:5-10 as the means whereby, once a person is saved, they will always remain saved. So, please allow me to amend my list to 8 items.

Make your calling an election sure, emphasis on "make" ποιέω and focus on σπουδάζω to dilligently endeavor doing something. So, the Apostle isn't making a statement for once saved always saved, as it is taught by some groups.

[thephnxman]

Originally Posted by votivesoul

I also, when I teach Bible studies, especially with babes in Christ, I focus on the "ologies" of the Bible. They include:
- Bibleology
- Theology
- Christology
- Angelogy
- Anthropology
- Soteriology
- Hamartiology
- Ecclesiology
- Cosmology
- Eschalotogy
Such a study is very long term, and honestly, I haven't gotten all the way through with anyone.

DID THEY DIE, OR RUN FOR THE HILLS?
(sorry: bad joke!)

[votivesoul]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

Make your calling an election sure, emphasis on "make" ποιέω and focus on σπουδάζω to dilligently endeavor doing something. So, the Apostle isn't making a statement for once saved always saved, as it is taught by some groups.

I don't believe once saved, always saved. The effort on the part of the believer to add to their faith, and onward, is mandated but not forced. If the believer doesn't follow through, they can fall. But if a believer follows through and succeeds in doing what Peter says, they have a promise that they will never fall.

But the onus is on the believer to do as instructed.

[votivesoul]

Originally Posted by thephnxman

DID THEY DIE, OR RUN FOR THE HILLS?
(sorry: bad joke!)

At the time I was teaching this, I had been teaching several people the items I listed for over a year. But a lot of unrelated tumult and sin was happening in the church at the time as well. Some left, some backslid, and some just stopped coming to the Bible study, for whatever reason.

[votivesoul]

Originally Posted by thephnxman

So, it seems you have identified WHAT is the problem.

Do you have a clue as to WHY it developed? Knowing that would go a long way to
remedying the situation. WHEN that happens, we can then decide on the first
steps to towards rebuilding the foundation that has been neglected...maybe.

"And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and
some, pastors and teachers...".

This, to me, is the bottomline. Unless the five-fold ministry (I don't like the term, but it's the easiest to use for all to understand) is brought to bear on issues like the one we are describing, nothing will be accomplished.

We have plenty of pastors and teachers, with some evangelists. But who are apostles and prophets? Where are they? Do they exist? If so, why are they closeted away?

Who is refusing their ministry? Who is keeping them in check so they can't do what they are called to do?

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by votivesoul

I don't believe once saved, always saved. The effort on the part of the believer to add to their faith, and onward, is mandated but not forced. If the believer doesn't follow through, they can fall. But if a believer follows through and succeeds in doing what Peter says, they have a promise that they will never fall.

But the onus is on the believer to do as instructed.

Awesome, very happy you can read.

[Lafon]

Originally Posted by votivesoul

This, to me, is the bottomline. Unless the five-fold ministry (I don't like the term, but it's the easiest to use for all to understand) is brought to bear on issues like the one we are describing, nothing will be accomplished.

Following many hours of pondering such issues, I awoke one morning recently with a word reverberating through my mind. Try as I might, I just could not shake it. That word was "complacency." As I thought of its meaning it began to "dawn" upon my mind that God had given me a one word, accurate description of the present-day Apostolic church. We've simply become so smug and conceited with the way we've always done things, and refuse to even consider the suggestion that we could be grossly amiss in some of our doctrines and practices, that we have become blinded to the dangers which are "screaming" for our attention and correction.

We have plenty of pastors and teachers, with some evangelists. But who are apostles and prophets? Where are they? Do they exist? If so, why are they closeted away?

Who is refusing their ministry? Who is keeping them in check so they can't do what they are called to do?

I believe there are apostles and prophets in the apostolic churches today. Its just that they are not members of the "licensed ministry," therefore they and their God given talents are suppressed. There are NO scriptural passages that I am aware of which states that these important "functions" ceased.