I thought apostolics believed Jesus is the Father?

[Sean]

Originally Posted by J.A. Perez

I believe Jesus clearly said, and I am paraphrasing.

If you do not believe I am the Father you will die in your sins.

John 8:19-24
Then said they unto him, Where is thy Father? Jesus answered, Ye neither know me, nor my Father: if ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also.

These words spake Jesus in the treasury, as he taught in the temple: and no man laid hands on him; for his hour was not yetcome.

Then said Jesus again unto them, I go my way, and ye shall seek me, and shall die in your sins: whither I go, ye cannot come.

Then said the Jews, Will he kill himself? because he saith, Whither I go, ye cannot come.

And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world.

Verse 24.
I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.

8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, show us the Father, and it sufficeth us.

9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?

10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.

2 Corinthians 5:19
19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.



God was inside the body of His begotten son, Jesus....Right?(I think so)


Could it be that God was/is inside of Jesus, speaking to mankind and reconciling the world back to Himself?(I think so)

[randyabrown]

Originally Posted by shazeep

of course, there are at least as many passages where Christ separates Himself from the Father--but what the heck.

And we would expect to see that because he was also a man. Two natures - both God and man. His deity is the Father (Jehovah - the only God there is) and his humanity is the Son of God. As a man he prayed; as God he answered prayer.

[Sean]

John 14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father(my divine nature) is greater than I(my human nature).....





?

[Sean]

John 14:7 If ye had known me(my human nature), ye should have known my Father(my divine nature) also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.

8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, show us the Father, and it sufficeth us.

9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me(my human nature) hath seen the Father(my divine nature) and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?





?

[shazeep]

what i dislike about this common conflation is that you had to add the parenthesis; and i happen to disagree with the "human nature" one, on moral grounds. I may be wrong, but your explanation reads like, "You have seen Me acting natural, and also divine..."

Originally Posted by randyabrown

And we would expect to see that because he was also a man. Two natures - both God and man. His deity is the Father (Jehovah - the only God there is) and his humanity is the Son of God. As a man he prayed; as God he answered prayer.

i have never had a problem with Christ's deity as the Son. Also, this explanation is inadequate to explain some of Christ's replies on this subject...but honestly, it is a subject that can only cause division, i think. i have yet to see on of these threads come to any conclusions. They inevitably strike me as a group of people expecting to define God more perfectly, or see God more fully, when Christ's "if you have seen Me, you have seen the Father" may be interpreted to mean something else.

Why wouldn't Christ just say "I AM the Father?" For the very simple reason that He is not the Father, in some important sense.

[randyabrown]

Originally Posted by shazeep

i have never had a problem with Christ's deity as the Son. Also, this explanation is inadequate to explain some of Christ's replies on this subject...but honestly, it is a subject that can only cause division, i think. i have yet to see on of these threads come to any conclusions.

Which of Christ's replies does his dual nature not explain?

[shazeep]

Originally Posted by randyabrown

Which of Christ's replies does his dual nature not explain?

rather, Christ gave many, many replies, some direct, that indicate that He did not consider Himself the Father, at least in the way that we now try to make Him. It can be simply stated that if Christ is the Father, then He was lying throughout much of the NT.

[randyabrown]

Originally Posted by shazeep

rather, Christ gave many, many replies, some direct, that indicate that He did not consider Himself the Father, at least in the way that we now try to make Him. It can be simply stated that if Christ is the Father, then He was lying throughout much of the NT.

Give us an example where Christ does not consider his deity to be the Father.

[shazeep]

Originally Posted by randyabrown

Give us an example where Christ does not consider his deity to be the Father.

i could give you 100, but ok.

…68and if I ask a question, you will not answer. 69"But from now on THE SON OF MAN WILL BE SEATED AT THE RIGHT HAND of the power OF GOD." 70And they all said, "Are You the Son of God, then?" And He said to them, "Yes, I am."…(not "I AM," notice; or even "I Am.")

[randyabrown]

Originally Posted by shazeep

i could give you 100, but ok.

…68and if I ask a question, you will not answer. 69"But from now on THE SON OF MAN WILL BE SEATED AT THE RIGHT HAND of the power OF GOD." 70And they all said, "Are You the Son of God, then?" And He said to them, "Yes, I am."…(not "I AM," notice; or even "I Am.")

Is Right Hand literal?

Jesus did claim to be the I Am (capitalization is irrelevant in a translation):

56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.
57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?
58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
59 Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by. (Jn. 8:56-59 KJV)