Your tithes were already paid. - Page 16

Originalist · #1 10-23-2015, 06:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pliny

I have documented this before. here we go again...

By the time of Melchizedek tithing was well established throughout the world. No one told Abraham to tithe. The question is why?

This is what I have sought to understand. I have an opinion and here it goes. Just as the many flood stories of multiple nations imply a common source I believe that the commonality of tithing among multitudes of ancient civilizations imply a common source.

The record of who and when it was established is lost due to the ravages of time. However, I believe there are hints. The Garden of Eden reveals a principle of managing something that belongs to God. The forbidden fruit. There was nothing poisonous about the fruit other than disobedience. It was good for food but it was God's portion. Adam and Eve were to cultivate it but could not partake of it. I see this same principle in tithing.

The narrative of Cain and Able is, in my opinion, about tithing. The LXX indicates that Cain had not rightly divided his offering (tithing is a division by 10). If I recall correctly the Hebrew is different from the typical offerings used elsewhere. Thus, I will not say it is a fact but I will say I lean towards this being the case.

If true it makes everything else make sense. It would mean tithing was established from the beginning and when the Tower of babel happened people took with them this custom but was applied to their deities.

Not sure if this is what you are after but there it is.

You like many others may disagree. that is your prerogative.

I have not heard any one from the other side offer any plausible explanation for this phenomenon.

Tithing was well established throughout the world by the time of Abraham? Based on what historical and Biblical evidence? Who did these people tithe to? Abraham tithed one time on items that did not belong to him and that he returned to the owners, howbeit 10% less. You are making a monstrous claim with nothing but fantasy to back it up with.

good samaritan · #2 10-23-2015, 01:51 PM

If tithing is a eternal moral law because it predates the law given to Moses, then so does the observance of the Sabbath. The Sabbath being holy was instituted at the 7th day when God rested. We can't pick and choose through the law what stays and what goes. All the law was fulfilled and is still being fulfilled in Jesus. I believe tithing according to the law was fulfilled in Jesus. Tithing is a good financial stewardship plan, but I don't see it as a law that passed on to the NT church.

Money is from a corrupt system of which I feel God finds no pleasure. The reason that God commanded Israel to pay the Holy tithe from the Holy land (IMO) was that money is not a system(Mammon) that God wanted for humanity. We should be good stewards here on this earth with whatever monetary system we have, but must not be caught up in this world systems.Money is not what God is interested in, but he desires the hearts of men.

When Jesus said to render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's and unto God that which is God's, He was not saying pay your taxes and pay your tithes. He was saying give Caesar his portion of that monetary system that the earthly government demands and give to God from the system he demands. The system God operates in is Spiritual and not carnal. Jesus was not interested in a percentage of people's gross profits, but he desired to redeem the lost unto himself.

If you truly belong to God you will generously give of ever facet of your life including this monetary system. If you legalistically teach mandatory tithing a NT law I feel you are going beyond the scripture. I am a tithe and offerings believer and teacher, but I don't see tithes and offerings in the mandatory way that some here are teaching it.

Pliny · #3 10-23-2015, 04:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by good samaritan

If tithing is a eternal moral law because it predates the law given to Moses, then so does the observance of the Sabbath. The Sabbath being holy was instituted at the 7th day when God rested. We can't pick and choose through the law what stays and what goes. All the law was fulfilled and is still being fulfilled in Jesus. I believe tithing according to the law was fulfilled in Jesus. Tithing is a good financial stewardship plan, but I don't see it as a law that passed on to the NT church.

Money is from a corrupt system of which I feel God finds no pleasure. The reason that God commanded Israel to pay the Holy tithe from the Holy land (IMO) was that money is not a system(Mammon) that God wanted for humanity. We should be good stewards here on this earth with whatever monetary system we have, but must not be caught up in this world systems.Money is not what God is interested in, but he desires the hearts of men.

When Jesus said to render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's and unto God that which is God's, He was not saying pay your taxes and pay your tithes. He was saying give Caesar his portion of that monetary system that the earthly government demands and give to God from the system he demands. The system God operates in is Spiritual and not carnal. Jesus was not interested in a percentage of people's gross profits, but he desired to redeem the lost unto himself.

If you truly belong to God you will generously give of ever facet of your life including this monetary system. If you legalistically teach mandatory tithing a NT law I feel you are going beyond the scripture. I am a tithe and offerings believer and teacher, but I don't see tithes and offerings in the mandatory way that some here are teaching it.

IMO the Sabbath rest is a type of the Holy Ghost where we enter the rest of God and are no longer required to "work" under the Law. Like circumcision the Sabbath has a NT expression.

I do appreciate that most people on the other side recognize and teach the need for freewill offerings.

J.A. Perez · #4 10-23-2015, 04:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by good samaritan

If tithing is a eternal moral law because it predates the law given to Moses, then so does the observance of the Sabbath. The Sabbath being holy was instituted at the 7th day when God rested. We can't pick and choose through the law what stays and what goes. All the law was fulfilled and is still being fulfilled in Jesus. I believe tithing according to the law was fulfilled in Jesus. Tithing is a good financial stewardship plan, but I don't see it as a law that passed on to the NT church.

Good stuff! I respect your opinion.
Not in a disrespectful way brother I'd like to point some things out. The reason that the other 9 commandments still stand as a line is because they were reinforced by the New Testament. The sabbath is the one God chose to reveal yet hidden to the readers then present. He chose to fulfill his sabbath in the church And we live it on a daily basis.

Isaiah 28:9-13
Whom shall he teach knowledge?
and whom shall he make to understand doctrine?
them that are weaned from the milk,
and drawn from the breasts.

For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept;
line upon line, line upon line;
here a little, and there a little:

For with stammering lips and another tongue
will he speak to this people.

To whom he said,
This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest;
and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear.

But the word of the Lord was unto them
precept upon precept, precept upon precept;
line upon line, line upon line;
here a little, and there a little;....

Hebrews 4:1-12
Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it. For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.

For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world. For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works. And in this place again, If they shall enter into my rest.

Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief: Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts.

For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day. There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God. For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.

Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief. For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Colossians 21:6,17
Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: Which are a shadow of things to come;

I could outline the other nine with new testament scripture, but I think you know them all as well. These are all part of Gods moral law.

I know that Malachi's words are meaningless to some but I still believe in them..

Malachi 3:6
For I am the Lord, I change not;....

Hebrews 13:8
Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

God bless you!

Sean · #5 10-23-2015, 04:33 PM

[QUOTE=J.A. Perez;1398832]Good stuff! I respect your opinion.
Not in a disrespectful way brother I'd like to point some things out. The reason that the other 9 commandments still stand as a line is because they were reinforced by the New Testament. The sabbath is the one God chose to reveal yet hidden to the readers then present. He chose to fulfill his sabbath in the church And we live it on a daily basis.

Brother Perez, did you know the 10 commandments were abolished for the believer?

Pliny · #6 10-23-2015, 04:37 PM

[QUOTE=Sean;1398833]

Quote:

Originally Posted by J.A. Perez

Good stuff! I respect your opinion.
Not in a disrespectful way brother I'd like to point some things out. The reason that the other 9 commandments still stand as a line is because they were reinforced by the New Testament. The sabbath is the one God chose to reveal yet hidden to the readers then present. He chose to fulfill his sabbath in the church And we live it on a daily basis.

Brother Perez, did you know the 10 commandments were abolished for the believer?

Sooo...
Idolatry is ok?
Murder is ok?
Adultery is ok?

Sean · #7 10-23-2015, 04:45 PM

[QUOTE=Pliny;1398839]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sean

Sooo...
Idolatry is ok?
Murder is ok?
Adultery is ok?

Ask your HOLY GHOST, Pliny. It will tell you.(Law of the Spirit)

J.A. Perez · #8 10-23-2015, 04:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by J.A. Perez

Good stuff! I respect your opinion.
Not in a disrespectful way brother I'd like to point some things out. The reason that the other 9 commandments still stand as a line is because they were reinforced by the New Testament. The sabbath is the one God chose to reveal yet hidden to the readers then present. He chose to fulfill his sabbath in the church And we live it on a daily basis.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sean

Brother Perez, did you know the 10 commandments were abolished for the believer?

No really?

I didn't know that, brother.

Show me where the Ten Commandments were abolished.

Sean · #9 10-23-2015, 04:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by J.A. Perez

No really?

I didn't know that, brother.

Show me where the Ten Commandments were abolished.

Okay bro....

2 Corinthians 3

3 Do we begin again to commend ourselves? or need we, as some others, epistles of commendation to you, or letters of commendation from you?

2 Ye are our epistle written in our hearts, known and read of all men:

3 Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone(ten commandments), but in fleshy tables of the heart.

4 And such trust have we through Christ to God-ward:

5 Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God;

6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones(10 commandments), was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory(10 commandments) was to be done away:

8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?

9 For if the ministration of condemnation(10 commandments) be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.

10 For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth.

11 For if that which is done away(10 commandments) was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.

12 Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech:

13 And not as Moses, which put a veil over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished(10 commandments)

14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament(entire O.T.) which vail is done away in Christ.

Pliny · #10 10-23-2015, 04:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by J.A. Perez

Good stuff! I respect your opinion.
Not in a disrespectful way brother I'd like to point some things out. The reason that the other 9 commandments still stand as a line is because they were reinforced by the New Testament. The sabbath is the one God chose to reveal yet hidden to the readers then present. He chose to fulfill his sabbath in the church And we live it on a daily basis.

Isaiah 28:9-13
Whom shall he teach knowledge?
and whom shall he make to understand doctrine?
them that are weaned from the milk,
and drawn from the breasts.

For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept;
line upon line, line upon line;
here a little, and there a little:

For with stammering lips and another tongue
will he speak to this people.

To whom he said,
This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest;
and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear.

But the word of the Lord was unto them
precept upon precept, precept upon precept;
line upon line, line upon line;
here a little, and there a little;....

Hebrews 4:1-12
Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it. For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.

For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world. For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works. And in this place again, If they shall enter into my rest.

Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief: Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts.

For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day. There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God. For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.

Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief. For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Colossians 21:6,17
Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: Which are a shadow of things to come;

I could outline the other nine with new testament scripture, but I think you know them all as well. These are all part of Gods moral law.

I know that Malachi's words are meaningless to some but I still believe in them..

Malachi 3:6
For I am the Lord, I change not;....

Hebrews 13:8
Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

God bless you!

Thank you for doing this. I don't have the time. I have spent too much time already.

The NT still says ALL scripture is inspired of God and is profitable for doctrine...

Take Care