Your tithes were already paid.

[Sean]

Originally Posted by votivesoul

As I have been reading, I believe it has been Pliny making the case that the pre-Law world, and not just Abraham and Jacob, practiced tithing as an act of religious devotion.

IF this is true (as I haven't searched it out for myself) then I would offer this counter-argument:

In 1 Corinthians 10:20, Paul makes it clear that whatever Gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice to devils, and not to God. Tithing as an act of religious devotion, is a sacrifice.

If any pre-Law Gentiles offered a sacrificial tithe to their god or gods, then such a tithe went to a devil or devils.

Paul wrote that he doesn't want us to have any fellowship with devils.

If the doctrine of tithing for New Covenant saints is to be proven using the above line of reasoning, i.e. that pre-Law heathens tithed to their gods, then, the alleged New Testament doctrine of tithing is being associated with demonic sacrifices.

Not a route anyone should ever want to go.

[Sean]

Originally Posted by votivesoul

When God incorporated Israel into a nation, He called for a tithe, and He instituted it to be a national flat tax in order to provide various social services to the citizens of His newly formed country of people.

God didn't need the money. But He knew that certain marginalized people within His covenant community did, along with the group of people He specifically ordered to not be given an inheritance, i.e. the Levites.

Here we are, in a New Covenant, with God Himself adopting us into His family. He is our Father; we all our brothers and sisters.

And somehow we think we have to give God money in order to remain in His good graces, as if He'd stop being our Father, and we'd stop being sons and daughters onto Him.

Is that how any family works? Is that how the heavenly family of God works?

Why does the church ever need money? It should be because certain marginalized people need it. It should not be to pay an un-Biblical mortgage on a building or parsonage for a pastor. It should not be to own much of anything.

It should be given to the poor and needy, for food and shelter, perhaps clothing, or other needs of life, and to freely support those servants of the Lord who have left all behind (family, homes, and other possessions) for the sake of the Gospel.

To think that the heavenly Father drew me by His grace and Spirit to His Son so the blood of the Lord, shed at Calvary, could remit all my sins, then demands that I add to that redemption by redeeming myself and my salvation with 10% of my gross income, is ridiculous.

I daresay, it's even an affront to His grace and the salvation He offers to us.

[Russ Kelly]

Originally Posted by Pliny

First
Tithe is a tithe. It simply means 10%. You say the definition used by Abraham and Jacob would be rejected in a courtroom, that is simply wrong. Tithing was well established in the earth long before Abraham. Hence, the lack of explanation found concerning it with Abraham. it just happens and it is recorded without explanation because everyone understood the reason why. It would be understood in a courtroom, as you say, because of the historical method of interpretation.

Second
Food production was the reasonable method of tithing in an agrarian society that existed a thousand years before there was anything that remotely resembled currency. Coinage did not exist until around 600 BC and required years before other nations copied the process. There was NO such thing as money or paychecks as we know them. It is simply an attempt to impose a twenty first century interpretation upon an ancient custom.

Third
Under the Law is irrelevant.

Fourth
All tithing requirements:
I don't have time to get into this right now.
Poor Tithe
As food for thought I will say that the Poor tithe has been replaced by charitable giving. In this way giving is not restricted to a small portion. James makes it clear we need to help a brother or sister if we can regardless of a percentage. Thus, NT Poor Tithe demands more than the OT Poor Tithe.

Rejoicing Tithe
This is strictly under the Levitical system. They are to be taken and used in the land of Israel. It is not relevant to the church.

General Tithe
Goes to support the ministry.
Paul said (paraphrased) he works for their spiritual good therefore he should receive of their carnal things. He references the OT and states that the ox is not muzzled. In another passage it is said that the church leaders are worthy of double pay (honor).

No one can say when tithing was established an no one can point to any passage that states tithing has ceased.

Both sides use principles they believe in.
It is clear to me that tithing was well established din the earth prior to Abraham and should be practiced today because it is not based upon the Levitical system.

1.The HOLY tithe, as the word is used by Moses, Nehemiah, Malachi and Jesus, was always only FOOD inside God's HOLY land. Don't just disagree -- give me texts please.

2. MONEY WAS NOT TITHED: Although money in the form of gold and silver existed in the Bible and was essential for sanctuary/temple worship, money was never included in any of the 16 descriptions of the holy tithe.

One argument to support non-food tithing is that money was not universally available and barter from food was used for money. That argument misses the point! While it is undeniable that food was also used for barter, it is also undeniable that money was never used for tithing.

Genesis alone contains the word money in 32 texts and the word occurs 44 times before the holy tithe is described in Leviticus 27:30-34. The words jewelry, gold, silver and shekel also appear often from Genesis to Deuteronomy.

Abram was very rich in silver and gold (Gen 13:2); money in the form of silver shekels paid for slaves (Gen 17:12+); Abimelech gave Abraham 1000 pieces of silver (Gen 20:16); Abraham paid 400 pieces of silver for land (Gen 23:9-16); Joseph was sold for silver pieces (Gen 37:28); slaves bought freedom (Lev 25:47-53). Court fines (Ex 21 all; 22 all), sanctuary dues (Ex 30:12+), vows (Lev 27:3-7), poll taxes (Numb 3:47+), alcoholic drinks (Deut 14:26) and marriage dowries (Deut 22:29) included money.

Joseph gave Benjamin 300 pieces of silver (Gen 45:22). In Genesis 47:15-17, food was used for barter only after money had been spent. Banking and usury laws exist in Leviticus even before tithing. Therefore money was common. Yet, from God’s inspired Word, the holy contents from Leviticus to Luke never include money from non-food products and trades. Pagan money with pagan images could not be brought into the temple as offerings.

If you disagree, please give texts.

3. Money with any pagan image or language on it was not accepted at the OT temple. It was exchanged for worthless temple money."Whose image is on it?

4. You say tithing under the Law is irrelevant. Why? The Law's description is used by Moses, Malachi and Jesus? Was it irrelevant to them. Your man-made description is irrelevant to me.

5. Tithing, child sacrifice, temple prostitution and sodomy all preceded the law and were world-wide. That doesn't make them eternal moral principles.

[Sean]

What a masterpiece of a rebuttal, Russ.

[Originalist]

Originally Posted by Sean

What a masterpiece of a rebuttal, Russ.

Ah, but will it matter to the "tithers"?

[Pliny]

Originally Posted by Russ Kelly

1.The HOLY tithe, as the word is used by Moses, Nehemiah, Malachi and Jesus, was always only FOOD inside God's HOLY land. Don't just disagree -- give me texts please.

2. MONEY WAS NOT TITHED: Although money in the form of gold and silver existed in the Bible and was essential for sanctuary/temple worship, money was never included in any of the 16 descriptions of the holy tithe.

One argument to support non-food tithing is that money was not universally available and barter from food was used for money. That argument misses the point! While it is undeniable that food was also used for barter, it is also undeniable that money was never used for tithing.

Genesis alone contains the word money in 32 texts and the word occurs 44 times before the holy tithe is described in Leviticus 27:30-34. The words jewelry, gold, silver and shekel also appear often from Genesis to Deuteronomy.

Abram was very rich in silver and gold (Gen 13:2); money in the form of silver shekels paid for slaves (Gen 17:12+); Abimelech gave Abraham 1000 pieces of silver (Gen 20:16); Abraham paid 400 pieces of silver for land (Gen 23:9-16); Joseph was sold for silver pieces (Gen 37:28); slaves bought freedom (Lev 25:47-53). Court fines (Ex 21 all; 22 all), sanctuary dues (Ex 30:12+), vows (Lev 27:3-7), poll taxes (Numb 3:47+), alcoholic drinks (Deut 14:26) and marriage dowries (Deut 22:29) included money.

Joseph gave Benjamin 300 pieces of silver (Gen 45:22). In Genesis 47:15-17, food was used for barter only after money had been spent. Banking and usury laws exist in Leviticus even before tithing. Therefore money was common. Yet, from God’s inspired Word, the holy contents from Leviticus to Luke never include money from non-food products and trades. Pagan money with pagan images could not be brought into the temple as offerings.

If you disagree, please give texts.

3. Money with any pagan image or language on it was not accepted at the OT temple. It was exchanged for worthless temple money."Whose image is on it?

4. You say tithing under the Law is irrelevant. Why? The Law's description is used by Moses, Malachi and Jesus? Was it irrelevant to them. Your man-made description is irrelevant to me.

5. Tithing, child sacrifice, temple prostitution and sodomy all preceded the law and were world-wide. That doesn't make them eternal moral principles.

I will try to get to this some time this week. I am very busy and I am sure you are as well. Since I am here and have but a couple moments I will ask this:
You have stated that money is used in the text of Genesis 32 times. The term used is a translation.

The term "money" for example is the Hebrew word keseph.
According to BDB
BDB Definition:
1) silver, money
1a) silver
1a1) as metal
1a2) as ornament
1a3) as colour
1b) money, shekels, talents

Also in Genesis it states: (Gen 43:21 KJV) And it came to pass, when we came to the inn, that we opened our sacks, and, behold, every man's money was in the mouth of his sack, our money in full weight: and we have brought it again in our hand.

The "money" was not currency. It was precious metals that was weighed out in bartering. Currency, as is known in the 21st century was not in existence until the end of the OT. The Bible was not written in a vacuum as you well know. It was written in a historical context. The context of money then is not even close to today.

BTW there is no need for you to get testy with me. I have been respectful of you.
(Your man-made description is irrelevant to me)

Abraham did not practice child sacrifice, temple prostitution or sodomy. Therein lies the difference. He did practice tithing.

[Monterrey]

Originally Posted by deacon blues

You go ahead and live how you want. Where a man's treasure is that is where his heart will be. I gladly tithe and will continue to, not because I have to, but because I want to. I believe tithing is a principle, not a law, and it worked before the law, during the law, and after the law. I am happy to give God what is already His.

Why would you want to waste your energy trying to convince people NOT to give???

Rightly said.

[Sean]

Originally Posted by Originalist

Ah, but will it matter to the "tithers"?

No, my brother. They will wait until they die and stand before the Spirit of Truth, before they realize they were teaching a fabricated doctrine.

Then it will be too late to repent.

[good samaritan]

By what do you mean, "will it matter to the tithers?" Are you suggesting that they quit tithing, or do you mean that they should change their motivation? If you preach this non tithing to cause people to quit or decrease their commitment to supporting their churches then that is totally wrong. I see the opposition to tithing as a legality, but I still desire to minimally support my church with tithing and offerings. It is not about legalities, I have loved my church family every where that God has placed through the years.

[Sean]

I think he meant the tithe teachers.(I responded to it, that way)