The Falacy of "Holy Spirit Prompting."

[JoReba]

Originally Posted by phareztamar

If I were to list the wisest men in scripture, the top three...in order...would be Jesus, Paul, Solomon. The great apostle Paul had a keener insight into the Royal Law, and it's meaning in a post-calvary world, than any man in scripture save my Lord. Who is this, that speaks so foolishly about his own father in the Lord...assuming JoReba is a gentile?

Tell us what the Royal Law has to do with you personally. Lol. This should be fun. Guys at your level are simple to tap.

[phareztamar]

Originally Posted by JoReba

Tell us what the Royal Law has to do with you personally. Lol. This should be fun. Guys at your level are simple to tap.

Nope...you win JoBob. We have no basis for a discussion. To discount the apostle Paul, and then want to discuss the Royal Law with me, is a bit of an ozymoron, don't you think?

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by JoReba

... the false apostle Saul of Tarsus.

Please lay out your argument for rejecting Paul as an apostle of Jesus Christ.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by JoReba

Saul was called an apostle only by himself and by Luke, who had no authority to name anyone as an Apostle

Saul was not called an apostle by any of the Twelve Apostles named by Jesus. Jesus never called Saul an apostle. The Twelve Apostles all had first hand training and commissioning by Jesus, Saul only saw a bright light, fell on the ground, and heard the disembodied voice of Jesus. There are only Twelve Apostles cited in John's Revelation, not 13. In his writings, Saul speaks of himself far more than he does Christ/God/The Lord. For instance, in 2 Cor. 4 he does so more than twice as often. None of the True Apostles ever call themselves "the chief of sinners" or any other derogatory names, but Saul does call himself that. Such a poor self image is not part of authentic Apostleship. Saul did not have doctrinal unity with the Twelve Apostles. The Twelve Apostles did not have any of the kinds of problems Saul had in his churches, hence his large volume of corrective writings. Saul falsely added many ideologies onto Christ's Gospel. For instance, he is the only NT writer to speak such convoluted and contrived nonsense about Grace. Jesus never once spoke the word Grace, and certainly did not demonstrate it as Saul tried to revise it. Revelator John quoted Jesus condemning false apostles at the Church of Ephesus, one of Paul's churches.

...

Saul was the first Professional Church Talker, and he talked so much in violation of Proverbs 10:19 that at one point a young man died. Saul's writings are very easy to preach about today because they are so milque toast and chatty, while Jesus' Words are very difficult to preach on. Jesus' Words are axiomatic, while Saul's are all suppositional.

Ignore my previous question, as I see you have already made your assertions regarding Paul, here. Most of your claims are negatives, which of course cannot be proven as stated, although they can be refuted, as I will do shortly, Lord willing. However, a common theme seems to be that Paul's doctrine was contrary to Christ's doctrine.

Could you list specific examples, quoting Paul's words, and then quoting Christ's words, to demonstrate they are contradictions?

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by JoReba

Saul was called an apostle only by himself and by Luke, who had no authority to name anyone as an Apostle

So, right here you discredit 13 letters written by Paul, plus the Gospel account by Luke, and the book of Acts. If you are now scratching the top of your pointy head wondering why I mention the Gospel account of Luke since Paul isn't mentioned anywhere in it, It is only logical that if Luke got it wrong concerning the Apostle Paul he must of got it wrong in anything else he penned. Yet, I don't believe that, but you have to believe that and with that being said what portions of the New Testament do you believe are credible?

Originally Posted by JoReba

Saul was not called an apostle by any of the Twelve Apostles named by Jesus.

Called an apostle by one of the 12? Paul had Peter do way better than that. Peter calls the Paul's writings 'epistles" Scripture, and yes, you are sadly one of the unlearned, unstable who has wrested the scripture and is currently on his way to damnation.

2 Peter 3:15-16

And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation, even as our beloved Brother Paul also, according to the wisdom given unto him, hath written unto you, as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things. Therein are some things hard to understand, which those who are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other Scriptures, unto their own destruction.

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by JoReba

Saul was called an apostle only by himself and by Luke, who had no authority to name anyone as an Apostle

Saul was not called an apostle by any of the Twelve Apostles named by Jesus. Jesus never called Saul an apostle. The Twelve Apostles all had first hand training and commissioning by Jesus, Saul only saw a bright light, fell on the ground, and heard the disembodied voice of Jesus. There are only Twelve Apostles cited in John's Revelation, not 13. In his writings, Saul speaks of himself far more than he does Christ/God/The Lord. For instance, in 2 Cor. 4 he does so more than twice as often. None of the True Apostles ever call themselves "the chief of sinners" or any other derogatory names, but Saul does call himself that. Such a poor self image is not part of authentic Apostleship. Saul did not have doctrinal unity with the Twelve Apostles. The Twelve Apostles did not have any of the kinds of problems Saul had in his churches, hence his large volume of corrective writings. Saul falsely added many ideologies onto Christ's Gospel. For instance, he is the only NT writer to speak such convoluted and contrived nonsense about Grace. Jesus never once spoke the word Grace, and certainly did not demonstrate it as Saul tried to revise it. Revelator John quoted Jesus condemning false apostles at the Church of Ephesus, one of Paul's churches.

I have just done your work for you. I can educate you further, but such would fall on deaf ears and a stone heart. Pity. Saul was the first Professional Church Talker, and he talked so much in violation of Proverbs 10:19 that at one point a young man died. Saul's writings are very easy to preach about today because they are so milque toast and chatty, while Jesus' Words are very difficult to preach on. Jesus' Words are axiomatic, while Saul's are all suppositional.

Sooo..one of your complaints is, Paul is too humble to be an Apostle?

BTW He was called to be an Apostle in Acts 9...if you understood what the word meant, you'd see that.

1) Paul's conversion. He met Jesus
Acts 9:3-6 Now as he went on his way, he approached Damascus, and suddenly a light from heaven shone around him. And falling to the ground he heard a voice saying to him, “Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting me?” And he said, “Who are you, Lord?” And he said, “I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting. But rise and enter the city, and you will be told what you are to do.”

2) Jesus sends a disciple to pray for Paul and tells him Paul is a chosen instrument of the Gentiles
Acts 9: 10-17 Now there was a disciple at Damascus named Ananias. The Lord said to him in a vision, “Ananias.” And he said, “Here I am, Lord.” And the Lord said to him, “Rise and go to the street called Straight, and at the house of Judas look for a man of Tarsus named Saul, for behold, he is praying, and he has seen in a vision a man named Ananias come in and lay his hands on him so that he might regain his sight.” But Ananias answered, “Lord, I have heard from many about this man, how much evil he has done to your saints at Jerusalem. And here he has authority from the chief priests to bind all who call on your name.” But the Lord said to him, “Go, for he is a chosen instrument of mine to carry my name before the Gentiles and kings and the children of Israel. For I will show him how much he must suffer for the sake of my name.”

3) Paul received by the other Apostles
Acts 15:2 And after Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and debate with them, Paul and Barnabas and some of the others were appointed to go up to Jerusalem to the apostles and the elders about this question.

Acts 15:4 When they came to Jerusalem, they were welcomed by the church and the apostles and the elders, and they declared all that God had done with them.

4) Peter and the other Apostles sent Paul back to the Gentile with some brothers
Acts 15:22 Then it seemed good to the apostles and the elders, with the whole church, to choose men from among them and send them to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas. They sent Judas called Barsabbas, and Silas, leading men among the brothers,

5) The Apostles call Paul beloved and someone who risked his life for the Jesus Christ
Acts 15:25-26 it has seemed good to us, having come to one accord, to choose men and send them to you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul, men who have risked their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.

6) Apostle Peter calls Paul brother and recognizes his letters as wisdom given to him and ad scripture
2 Peter 3:16-17 And count the patience of our Lord as salvation, just as our beloved brother Paul also wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, as he does in all his letters when he speaks in them of these matters. There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures

[shazeep]

not sure any of that elevates Paul to "Apostle" though; I think JR has a point there maybe.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

BTW He was called to be an Apostle in Acts 9...if you understood what the word meant, you'd see that.

1) Paul's conversion. He met Jesus
Acts 9:3-6 Now as he went on his way, he approached Damascus, and suddenly a light from heaven shone around him. And falling to the ground he heard a voice saying to him, “Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting me?” And he said, “Who are you, Lord?” And he said, “I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting. But rise and enter the city, and you will be told what you are to do.”

2) Jesus sends a disciple to pray for Paul and tells him Paul is a chosen instrument of the Gentiles
Acts 9: 10-17 Now there was a disciple at Damascus named Ananias. The Lord said to him in a vision, “Ananias.” And he said, “Here I am, Lord.” And the Lord said to him, “Rise and go to the street called Straight, and at the house of Judas look for a man of Tarsus named Saul, for behold, he is praying, and he has seen in a vision a man named Ananias come in and lay his hands on him so that he might regain his sight.” But Ananias answered, “Lord, I have heard from many about this man, how much evil he has done to your saints at Jerusalem. And here he has authority from the chief priests to bind all who call on your name.” But the Lord said to him, “Go, for he is a chosen instrument of mine to carry my name before the Gentiles and kings and the children of Israel. For I will show him how much he must suffer for the sake of my name.”

Exactly. He was SENT of GOD to the gentiles. That means he is an apostle to the gentiles.

[shazeep]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Exactly. He was SENT of GOD to the gentiles. That means he is an apostle to the gentiles.

i never did like this calling people other than the 12 apostles...there is no Scriptural basis for it.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by shazeep

i never did like this calling people other than the 12 apostles...there is no Scriptural basis for it.

I believe Acts 9 is the basis for Paul.

And Corinthians says that God set apostles in the church, so as long there is a church there are apostles in the same context the other ministries are mentioned. Eph 4:11 as well.