House church or excuse?

[shazeep]

Originally Posted by mfblume

consider this...

Women saved in childbirth equates to the same level as acts 2:38? Acts 2:38 is the direct answer to people who wanted to know what to do about the work of the cross to benefit from it. It's reflected in Romans 6. It's from the message on the day new birth started. It's what Jesus told them to tell the world in Luke 24. It's THE message for those who want to pay the cross to their lives.

Saved through child bearing refers to the saviour who came through a woman as foretold in Genesis 3 when the seed of the woman was foretold. It's not an alternative to Acts 2:38.

And while we're at it, you once mentioned something about judging by doctrine, which you denied was the plan. I disagree due to scripture.

2 John 1:10 If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:

ok, but this makes Acts 2:38 the doctrine, when the doctrine is "love one another."

"6And this is love: that we walk according to His commands. This is the command as you have heard it from the beginning: you must walk in love."

and don't get me wrong; Acts 2:38 is great, until it gets into the hands of some OP determined to use it as a yardstick for others.

"4But let every man prove his own work, and then shall he have rejoicing in himself alone, and not in another."

____________________

"15But women will be preserved through the bearing of children if they continue in faith and love and sanctity with self-restraint."

I'm not sure the text agrees with your interpretation here, but regardless--that is just the first verse that came to mind at the time, in response to the Acts 2:38 cult; Scripture provides about 50 others. And you could pick any thread on AFF to demonstrate that the real yardstick, "love one another," is quickly forgotten in the rush to Acts 2:38.

[shazeep]

ok, there is this translation

International Standard Version
even though she will be saved through the birth of the Child, if they continue in faith, love, and holiness, along with good judgment.

but i would argue that it is a mis-translation, and does not agree with the lexicon @ "childbearing," Strong's 5042, or if it does, it sure seems like a tortured way to restate that to be saved, one must come to know Christ.

[KeptByTheWord]

Originally Posted by shazeep

ok, there is this translation

International Standard Version
even though she will be saved through the birth of the Child, if they continue in faith, love, and holiness, along with good judgment.

but i would argue that it is a mis-translation, and does not agree with the lexicon @ "childbearing," Strong's 5042, or if it does, it sure seems like a tortured way to restate that to be saved, one must come to know Christ.

I've always understood that it means that since Jesus was born of a woman, the curse of childbearing which began in the garden ended at Calvary.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by KeptByTheWord

I've always understood that it means that since Jesus was born of a woman, the curse of childbearing which began in the garden ended at Calvary.

Bingo!

[mfblume]

Esaias, in my opinion your commentary about Matt 18 did great until you got to the verse in question. Jesus is merely saying that if two or three do something IN HIS NAME, it's like Him personally being there. he is represented as being there in those two or three. It's not saying He is present Himself, since that is redundant. He is everywhere anyway, and He indwells us all anyway as well. But the reason that which is bound or loosed in earth is also so in heaven is because those in earth who do this in his name are AS GOOD AS HIMSELF being there and having done it. Its is not saying two or three can gather and He will bless us with His presence. For that matter, we can be alone and He is with us!

It is speaking in terms of proxy, He is in our midst by proxy if we do this in His way and in His name.

Paul said the same thing!

1 Corinthians 5:3-5 For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed, (4) In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, (5) To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

The power of Jesus is His authority, and that is what it means to do things in His name. It's putting us in the place of Jesus by proxy. We're doing this in His authority, and not our own.

When a policeman commands somebody to do something in the name of the Law, the law is not physically there except in the person of that officer. That is what Jesus mean by two or three gathering in His name and Him being present. By proxy.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by shazeep

ok, but this makes Acts 2:38 the doctrine, when the doctrine is "love one another."

That is not the doctrine of salvation, Shazeep. Loving each other does not save us from sin. It's how people know we are His people, but not the doctrine of how to be saved and apply the work of the cross to our lives.

"6And this is love: that we walk according to His commands. This is the command as you have heard it from the beginning: you must walk in love."

Agreed. But that is not a doctrine of salvation.

and don't get me wrong; Acts 2:38 is great, until it gets into the hands of some OP determined to use it as a yardstick for others.

"4But let every man prove his own work, and then shall he have rejoicing in himself alone, and not in another."

____________________

"15But women will be preserved through the bearing of children if they continue in faith and love and sanctity with self-restraint."

I'm not sure the text agrees with your interpretation here, but regardless--that is just the first verse that came to mind at the time, in response to the Acts 2:38 cult; Scripture provides about 50 others. And you could pick any thread on AFF to demonstrate that the real yardstick, "love one another," is quickly forgotten in the rush to Acts 2:38.

If you are saying love is a yardstick to see how much we know God, fine. But Acts 2:38 is indeed a yardstick that determines if we are saved from sin or not. You';re talking apples and oranges when you speak of what the purpose of love is and what the purpose of Acts 2:38 is.

[shazeep]

Originally Posted by KeptByTheWord

I've always understood that it means that since Jesus was born of a woman, the curse of childbearing which began in the garden ended at Calvary.

well, does it no longer cause pain to bear children?

To the woman He said, "I will greatly multiply Your pain in childbirth, In pain you will bring forth children;

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by shazeep

well, does it no longer cause pain to bear children?

To the woman He said, "I will greatly multiply Your pain in childbirth, In pain you will bring forth children;

It's spiritual.

Isaiah 66:5-8 Hear the word of the LORD, ye that tremble at his word; Your brethren that hated you, that cast you out for my name's sake, said, Let the LORD be glorified: but he shall appear to your joy, and they shall be ashamed. (6) A voice of noise from the city, a voice from the temple, a voice of the LORD that rendereth recompence to his enemies. (7) Before she travailed, she brought forth; before her pain came, she was delivered of a man child. (8) Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things? Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day? or shall a nation be born at once? for as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children.

In other words, Zion no sooner got the point where there should have been in travail than she already gave birth.

The curse-free birth is salvation the day of the cross.

[shazeep]

Originally Posted by mfblume

That is not the doctrine of salvation, Shazeep. Loving each other does not save us from sin. It's how people know we are His people, but not the doctrine of how to be saved and apply the work of the cross to our lives.



Agreed. But that is not a doctrine of salvation.



If you are saying love is a yardstick to see how much we know God, fine. But Acts 2:38 is indeed a yardstick that determines if we are saved from sin or not. You';re talking apples and oranges when you speak of what the purpose of love is and what the purpose of Acts 2:38 is.

i would apply them in direct reverse--apply Acts 2:38 to yourself, and apply love to everyone else. But in the end, if one seeks a way to become the judge of others--"Judge not" notwithstanding--one will find a way to justify it, while ignoring that they have lost "love." Love is the doctrine of salvation, given just a couple verses ahead of 2John1:10;

"As you have heard from the beginning, his command is that you walk in love."

So, His command is not that one walk in Acts 2:38, but that one walk in love.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by shazeep

i would apply them in direct reverse--apply Acts 2:38 to yourself, and apply love to everyone else.

Ture in one sense.

But John spoke of not letting someone in your house with another doctrine,. and that was not a doctrine of love. It was salvation.

But in the end, if one seeks a way to become the judge of others--"Judge not" notwithstanding--one will find a way to justify it, while ignoring that they have lost "love." Love is the doctrine of salvation, given just a couple verses ahead of 2John1:10;

We are supposed to judge to an extent, S. Jesus did not say don't judge. He said int he manner we judge will we be judged. So, don't judge unless you're innocent.

Paul also said judge those within, and those without will God judge.

"As you have heard from the beginning, his command is that you walk in love."

So, His command is not that one walk in Acts 2:38, but that one walk in love.

Agreed in a certain context alone, though. You're putting them both in the same context and they're not.