House church or excuse?

[Aquila]

I'll just share the passage on church discipline:

Matthew 18:15-20 (ESV)
15 “If your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault, between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother. 16 But if he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, that every charge may be established by the evidence of two or three witnesses. 17 If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church. And if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector. 18 Truly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. 19 Again I say to you, if two of you agree on earth about anything they ask, it will be done for them by my Father in heaven. 20 For (meaning: "Because") where two or three are gathered in my name, there am I among them.”

You see, the point is... if two agree on earth about anything they ask relating to church discipline, it will be done for them by the Father in Heaven. Why? Because where two or three are gathered IN HIS NAME (not just for discipline), there He is among them.

Church discipline procedure would have no Heavenly authority if it were not for Christ's commitment to be present in a special way as long as two or more are gathered together in His name.

[Aquila]

I believe it should be noted that... Pentecost happened in a house as opposed to a religious temple or dedicated structure:

Acts 2:2 “And suddenly there came from heaven a noise like a violent, rushing wind, and it filled the whole
house where they were sitting.”

Also, we read that Christians regularly meet in homes, and that those persecuting them knew they could find Christians gathering in homes:

Acts 2:46 “And day by day continuing with one mind in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, they were taking their meals together with gladness and sincerity of heart”

Acts 5:42 “And every day, in the temple and from house to house, they kept right on teaching and preaching Jesus as the Christ.”

Acts 8:3 “But Saul began ravaging the church, entering house after house; and dragging off men and women, he would put them in prison.”

Acts 9:11 “And the Lord said to him, ‘Arise and go to the street called Straight, and inquire at the house of Judas for a man from Tarsus named Saul, for behold, he is praying.’”

Acts 12:12 “And when he realized this, he went to the house of Mary, the mother of John who was also called Mark, where many were gathered together and were praying.”

Acts 16:40 “And they went out of the prison and entered the house of Lydia, and when they saw the brethren, they encouraged them and departed.”

Acts 18:7 “And he departed from there and went to the house of a certain man named Titius Justus, a worshipper of God, whose house was next to the synagogue.”

Acts 20:20 “I did not shrink from declaring to you anything that was profitable, and teaching you publicly and from house to house.”

Acts 21:8 “And on the next day we departed and came to Caesarea; and entering the house of Philip the evangelist, who was one of the seven, we stayed with him.”

Romans 16:5 “also greet the church that is in their house. Greet Epaenetus, my beloved, who is the first convert to Christ from Asia.”

1 Cor. 16:19 “The churches of Asia greet you. Aquila and Prisca greet you heartily in the Lord, with the church that is in their house.”

Col. 4:15 “Greet the brethren who are in Laodicea and also Nympha and the church that is in her house.”

1 Tim. 5:13-14 “And at the same time they also learn to be idle, as they go around from house to house; and not merely idle, but also gossips and busybodies, talking about things not proper to mention.”

Philemon 1:2 “and to Apphia our sister, and to Archippus our fellow soldier, and to the church in your house”

2 John 1:10 “If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not receive him into your house, and do not give him a greeting;”

When writing to the Corinthian Christians Paul illustrated that their gatherings should have the following elements and guiding principles (I Corinthians 14:26-38):

- Everyone is able to bring a hymn, a lesson, a revelation, a tongue, or an interpretation to share at the gathering. However, there must be order.
- Gift of tongues coupled with interpretation, is to be presented by two or at most three individuals. If there is no interpreter, the one feeling the tongues should remain silent and not address the group.
- Two or three anointed teachers (prophets) are to speak and guide the meeting.
- If a saint attending has a revelation or something to share, whoever is speaking must stop and give them the floor so that all might be able to prophesy, learn, and be encouraged. Meetings are to be discussion based.
- Those who address the group must realize that their spirits are subject to the anointed teachers (prophets) guiding the group.
- Women (or anyone for that matter) are not to use the time for socializing or excessive talking .
- Those who think they are spiritual Christians should acknowledge that this order of gathering is a command from the Lord.

If our "form of church" will not allow for these kinds of meetings... we are failing to meet as the Apostle Paul admonished the early church to meet. It doesn't matter if it is in a house, a park, a coffee shop, a library, a book store, a bus stop, a town square, church building or wherever. The point is that the above elements should be present. They are to be elder guided and interactive in nature. If a meeting is too big to facilitate this, it fails to allow for the "body ministry" Paul admonishes us to have. Most completely ignore that Paul states that this order of gathering is a "command from the Lord" (I Corinthians 14:37).

Here we have a clear and plain commandment. However, it is treated by most today as though it is merely an option. I do respect how many (but not all) traditional churches provide for small group ministries wherein this kind of body life can be experienced in care groups and such. However, these small groups are typically regarded as being less significant and subordinate to the larger gatherings held in their church buildings. In fact, this should be reversed. Early Christians primarily met in homes. Larger gatherings were typically for a specific purpose and were supplemental in nature.

[votivesoul]

A Spirit-filled saint is never alone. Christ abides in his or her heart. And that Presence is always present, whether "manifest" or not. One may commune privately with the Lord at his or her leisure. That is just as legitimate as many gathering together. One can always minister unto the Lord, alone.

I'm not putting a number on how many have to be gathered together in the name of Jesus to constitute a meeting of the church. That's not the point, at least with me. With me, is that no additional information is available from Matthew 18, or said another way, Matthew 18 is silent on the number of saints that have to be present to constitute a church gathering, because that's not what Jesus was talking about.

It has a a very limited scope. To try to pull other principles out of the text is to by-pass the context and go beyond the limitations of what the Lord was trying to communicate.

To do otherwise, to make it be about the "magic number" of how many saints have to get together to constitute an official church meeting (for whatever purpose) would make the whole context appear to say that every meeting of the church is always about dealing with sin between brothers, when anything but THAT, is the case.

[Sean]

Originally Posted by votivesoul

A Spirit-filled saint is never alone. Christ abides in his or her heart. And that Presence is always present, whether "manifest" or not. One may commune privately with the Lord at his or her leisure. That is just as legitimate as many gathering together. One can always minister unto the Lord, alone.

I'm not putting a number on how many have to be gathered together in the name of Jesus to constitute a meeting of the church. That's not the point, at least with me. With me, is that no additional information is available from Matthew 18, or said another way, Matthew 18 is silent on the number of saints that have to be present to constitute a church gathering, because that's not what Jesus was talking about.

It has a a very limited scope. To try to pull other principles out of the text is to by-pass the context and go beyond the limitations of what the Lord was trying to communicate.

To do otherwise, to make it be about the "magic number" of how many saints have to get together to constitute an official church meeting (for whatever purpose) would make the whole context appear to say that every meeting of the church is always about dealing with sin between brothers, when anything but THAT, is the case.

I think this number is an official number for a church meeting, Aaron...

Matthew 18:20
20 For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.

Case in point...

And at midnight Paul and Silas prayed, and sang praises unto God: and the prisoners heard them.


And revival broke out!

[Sean]

Originally Posted by Aquila

I believe it should be noted that... Pentecost happened in a house as opposed to a religious temple or dedicated structure:

Acts 2:2 “And suddenly there came from heaven a noise like a violent, rushing wind, and it filled the whole
house where they were sitting.”

Also, we read that Christians regularly meet in homes, and that those persecuting them knew they could find Christians gathering in homes:

Acts 2:46 “And day by day continuing with one mind in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, they were taking their meals together with gladness and sincerity of heart”

Acts 5:42 “And every day, in the temple and from house to house, they kept right on teaching and preaching Jesus as the Christ.”

Acts 8:3 “But Saul began ravaging the church, entering house after house; and dragging off men and women, he would put them in prison.”

Acts 9:11 “And the Lord said to him, ‘Arise and go to the street called Straight, and inquire at the house of Judas for a man from Tarsus named Saul, for behold, he is praying.’”

Acts 12:12 “And when he realized this, he went to the house of Mary, the mother of John who was also called Mark, where many were gathered together and were praying.”

Acts 16:40 “And they went out of the prison and entered the house of Lydia, and when they saw the brethren, they encouraged them and departed.”

Acts 18:7 “And he departed from there and went to the house of a certain man named Titius Justus, a worshipper of God, whose house was next to the synagogue.”

Acts 20:20 “I did not shrink from declaring to you anything that was profitable, and teaching you publicly and from house to house.”

Acts 21:8 “And on the next day we departed and came to Caesarea; and entering the house of Philip the evangelist, who was one of the seven, we stayed with him.”

Romans 16:5 “also greet the church that is in their house. Greet Epaenetus, my beloved, who is the first convert to Christ from Asia.”

1 Cor. 16:19 “The churches of Asia greet you. Aquila and Prisca greet you heartily in the Lord, with the church that is in their house.”

Col. 4:15 “Greet the brethren who are in Laodicea and also Nympha and the church that is in her house.”

1 Tim. 5:13-14 “And at the same time they also learn to be idle, as they go around from house to house; and not merely idle, but also gossips and busybodies, talking about things not proper to mention.”

Philemon 1:2 “and to Apphia our sister, and to Archippus our fellow soldier, and to the church in your house”

2 John 1:10 “If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not receive him into your house, and do not give him a greeting;”

When writing to the Corinthian Christians Paul illustrated that their gatherings should have the following elements and guiding principles (I Corinthians 14:26-38):

- Everyone is able to bring a hymn, a lesson, a revelation, a tongue, or an interpretation to share at the gathering. However, there must be order.
- Gift of tongues coupled with interpretation, is to be presented by two or at most three individuals. If there is no interpreter, the one feeling the tongues should remain silent and not address the group.
- Two or three anointed teachers (prophets) are to speak and guide the meeting.
- If a saint attending has a revelation or something to share, whoever is speaking must stop and give them the floor so that all might be able to prophesy, learn, and be encouraged. Meetings are to be discussion based.
- Those who address the group must realize that their spirits are subject to the anointed teachers (prophets) guiding the group.
- Women (or anyone for that matter) are not to use the time for socializing or excessive talking .
- Those who think they are spiritual Christians should acknowledge that this order of gathering is a command from the Lord.

If our "form of church" will not allow for these kinds of meetings... we are failing to meet as the Apostle Paul admonished the early church to meet. It doesn't matter if it is in a house, a park, a coffee shop, a library, a book store, a bus stop, a town square, church building or wherever. The point is that the above elements should be present. They are to be elder guided and interactive in nature. If a meeting is too big to facilitate this, it fails to allow for the "body ministry" Paul admonishes us to have. Most completely ignore that Paul states that this order of gathering is a "command from the Lord" (I Corinthians 14:37).

Here we have a clear and plain commandment. However, it is treated by most today as though it is merely an option. I do respect how many (but not all) traditional churches provide for small group ministries wherein this kind of body life can be experienced in care groups and such. However, these small groups are typically regarded as being less significant and subordinate to the larger gatherings held in their church buildings. In fact, this should be reversed. Early Christians primarily met in homes. Larger gatherings were typically for a specific purpose and were supplemental in nature.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Aquila

I'll just share the passage on church discipline:

Matthew 18:15-20 (ESV)
15 “If your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault, between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother. 16 But if he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, that every charge may be established by the evidence of two or three witnesses. 17 If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church. And if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector. 18 Truly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. 19 Again I say to you, if two of you agree on earth about anything they ask, it will be done for them by my Father in heaven. 20 For (meaning: "Because") where two or three are gathered in my name, there am I among them.”

You see, the point is... if two agree on earth about anything they ask relating to church discipline, it will be done for them by the Father in Heaven. Why? Because where two or three are gathered IN HIS NAME (not just for discipline), there He is among them.

Church discipline procedure would have no Heavenly authority if it were not for Christ's commitment to be present in a special way as long as two or more are gathered together in His name.

You're one stubborn cookie. lol

And you're wrong.

In HIS NAME means He is there by proxy. That's the whole point!

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by mfblume

You're one stubborn cookie. lol

And you're wrong.

In HIS NAME means He is there by proxy. That's the whole point!

Yes, that is the whole meaning which goes with God being in their midsts in the wilderness tabernacle, right in the middle of the tribes. In His name means Jesus' authority is there in the middle of the three fold witness by proxy. Amen Brother Blume.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by mfblume

You're one stubborn cookie. lol

And you're wrong.

In HIS NAME means He is there by proxy. That's the whole point!

So what does "by proxy" rule out?

[shazeep]

Originally Posted by Esaias

So what does "by proxy" rule out?

lawyers!

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Esaias

So what does "by proxy" rule out?

It's not what it rules out, it's what it points to. I thought you said it was a proxy issue. Where do you stand? Proxy or not?