Love One Another and the Cross

[shazeep]

i am not seeing how your position is any different from a modern day Spanish Inquisition. Don't the righteous elements of our gov hold your position, with the power of the military to enforce it? If not, how not?

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Originally Posted by shazeep

i am not seeing how your position is any different from a modern day Spanish Inquisition. Don't the righteous elements of our gov hold your position, with the power of the military to enforce it? If not, how not?

Of course you don't see it. "TO ME" is your universe. No chance of error there.

[shazeep]

You actually cannot grasp the issue of the NT explanation of how the law said successful compliance with Law of works causes one to have eternal life, but that route is impossible to keep, so grace brought the same life through the means of faith instead.

so now, are you back to "When Christ said that loving your neighbor was 9/10ths of the law and prophets, He didn't really mean to love your neighbor, He meant to not love your neighbor, as that would be attempting salvation by works."?

of course i put my impression, not how you would have put it. So, could you put it your way? (i would have said "can you clear that up," but apparently that carries some negative connotation now that i am not aware of)

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by shazeep

You actually cannot grasp the issue of the NT explanation of how the law said successful compliance with Law of works causes one to have eternal life, but that route is impossible to keep, so grace brought the same life through the means of faith instead.

so now, are you back to "When Christ said that loving your neighbor was 9/10ths of the law and prophets, He didn't really mean to love your neighbor, He meant to not love your neighbor, as that would be attempting salvation by works."?

No. That is not what I am saying. He only indicated something that would work if we had no sin. And the truth is the rest of the bible teaches us God expects the same good people through grace that Law tried to produce. The goal for Law and grace is one and the same.

That's why I quoted 1 Timothy.

1Ti 1:5 KJV Now the end of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned:

THE END is the GOAL.

1) charity out of a pure heat.
2) Good conscience.
3) Unfeigned faith.

Those three things are what Law intended to produce in us by getting us to do good works to save ourselves. But we had sin in our flesh, so Law was disabled from accomplishing that.

Paul then stated the same ends and goals are abundantly found in grace.

1Ti 1:14 KJV And the grace of our Lord was exceeding abundant with faith and love which is in Christ Jesus.

What Law could not produce was exceeding abundant in grace!

So, grace does not contradict Law as per its goals. Grace does not produce people who don't have the traits Law tried to produce. It's just that the MEANS of grace to bring about these things is contrary to Law. It is faith as opposed to works.

I am saying He was confirming the fact that doing those works successfully would save him. But the truth is that no one can do them due to sin. But that does not mean once we are saved by the OTHER ROUTE aside from works, called grace, we still do what the law said do. And grace is abundant with the very things about love that law instructed. The only difference is the good works of loving were intended to save under Law, and Law could not succeed, so we're saved by grace, and we still are told to love the same way Law instructed.

That is what Paul meant in Romans 8 about the righteousness of the law is fulfilled in us who walk not after the flesh. Walking after the flesh is trying to serve God under fleshly exertion under Law's command to do so to gain life. It does not work. But the same conclusions of loving God and people that God told man to achieve by works is provided by grace. The same goodness.

Rom 8:3-4 KJV For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: (4) That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

The law tried to get us to be good people, but failed due to sin in us. The same goal of having good people is provided by a means other than Law. Grace! The righteousness of the law being fulfilled in us is the same good people Law tried to make us.

of course i put my impression, not how you would have put it. So, could you put it your way? (i would have said "can you clear that up," but apparently that carries some negative connotation now that i am not aware of)

...Whatever that means.

Anyway, this is what I mean by you not grasping this concept. It is actually the entire basis of Grace. By the way you keep responding, confusing Christ's intention in His words about the Good Samaritan you reveal you are missing what I meant. No biggie in one sense since I will seek to be more clear, but in a way it is the biggest issue between Law and Grace.

[shazeep]

Grace may be much larger than we envision.

No. That is not what I am saying. He only indicated something that would work if we had no sin.

this is just another way to say the same thing, Mike. It is denying that Christ said this for the Church, as a direction to follow.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by shazeep

Grace may be much larger than we envision.

No. That is not what I am saying. He only indicated something that would work if we had no sin.

this is just another way to say the same thing, Mike. It is denying that Christ said this for the Church, as a direction to follow.

Nope. You totally misunderstand.

I will provide commentary to show as witness of my thoughts.

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The Good Samaritan:

Luk 10:25 KJV And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?

JOHN GILL:
saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life? the same question as was put by the young ruler in Mar_10:17 for they were both of the same complexion, and upon the same foundation, seeking eternal life by their own works: See Gill on Mat_19:16.

Luk 10:29 KJV But he, willing to justify himself, said unto Jesus, And who is my neighbour?

CLARKE: Willing to justify himself - Wishing to make it appear that he was a righteous man, and that consequently he was in the straight road to the kingdom of God, said, Who is my neighbor? supposing our Lord would have at once answered, “Every Jew is to be considered as such, and the Jews only.” Now as he imagined he had never been deficient in his conduct to any person of his own nation, he thought he had amply fulfilled the law.

JOHN GILL:

But he willing to justify himself,.... Upon the foot of his own righteousness, and to make himself appear to be righteous to others; for this the Jews thought themselves able to do, both to justify themselves before God by their own works, and make it out to men, that they were truly righteous persons; and it is a maxim with them, that

"every one המצדיק את עצמו that justifies himself, below (on earth), they justify him above (or in heaven) (k).''

ALBERT BARNES:

To justify himself - Desirous to appear blameless, or to vindicate himself, and show that he had kept the law. Jesus wished to lead him to a proper view of his own sinfulness, and his real departure from the law. The man was desirous of showing that he had kept the law; or perhaps he was desirous of justifying himself for asking the question; of showing that it could not be so easily settled; that a mere reference to the “words” of the law did not determine it.

GILL noted this is similar to the issue of the rich young ruler asking the same question as about obtaining eternal life.

Mat 19:16 KJV And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?

GILL: This man was no Sadducee, he believed a future state; was a serious man, thoughtful about another world, and concerned how he should enjoy everlasting life; but was entirely upon a legal bottom, and under a covenant of works; and speaks in the language and strain of the nation of Israel, who were seeking for righteousness and life by the works of the law: he expected eternal life by doing some good thing, or things; and hoped, as the sequel shows, that he had done every good thing necessary to the obtaining it.

BARNES: What good thing shall I do? - He had attempted to keep all the commandments. He had been taught by his Jewish teachers that people were to be saved by doing something - that is, by their works; and he supposed that this was to be the way under every system of religion. He had lived externally a blameless life, but yet he was not at peace: he was anxious, and he came to ascertain what, in the view of Jesus, was to be done, that his righteousness might be complete. To “have eternal life” means to be saved. The happiness of heaven is called “life,” in opposition to the pains of hell, called “death,” or an eternal dying, Rev_2:2; Rev_20:14. The one is real life, answering the purposes of living - living to the honor of God and in eternal happiness; the other is a failure of the great ends of existence - prolonged, eternal suffering, of which temporal death is but the feeble image.

Mat 19:17 KJV And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

BARNES: Keep the commandments - That is, do what God has commanded. He in the next verses informs him what he meant by the commandments. Jesus said this, doubtless, to try him, and to convince him that he had by no means kept the commandments, and that in supposing he had he was altogether deceived. The young man thought he had kept them, and was relying on them for salvation. It was of great importance, therefore, to convince him that he was, after all, a sinner. Christ did not mean to say that any man would be saved by the works of the law, for the Bible teaches plainly that such will not be the case, Rom_3:20, Rom_3:28; Rom_4:6; Gal_2:16; Eph_2:9; 2Ti_1:9. At the same time, however, it is true that if a man perfectly complied with the requirements of the law he would be saved, for there would be no reason why he should be condemned. Jesus, therefore, since he saw he was depending on his works, told him that if he would enter into life that is, into heaven - he must keep the commandments; if he was depending on them he must keep them perfectly, and if this was done he would be saved. The reasons why Christ gave him this direction were, probably:

1. because it was his duty to keep them.

2. because the young man depended on them, and he ought to understand what was required if he did - that they should be kept perfectly, or that they were not kept at all.

3. because he wanted to test him, to show him that he did not keep them, and thus to show him his need of a Saviour.


Mat 19:21 KJV Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.

BARNES: Go and sell that thou hast ... - The young man declared that he had kept the law. That law required, among other things, that he should love his neighbor as himself. It required, also, that he should love the Lord his God supremely; that is, more than all other objects. If he had that true love to God and man - if he loved his Maker and fellow-creatures more than he did his property, he would be willing to give up his wealth to the service of God and of man. Jesus commanded him to do this, therefore, to test his character, and to show him that he had not kept the law as he pretended, and thus to show him that he needed a better righteousness than his own.

That is why Jesus ended it by saying:

Mat 19:25-26 KJV When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved? (26) But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.

It's impossible for man to do the things Jesus asked the ruler to do! Just as I have been saying! Why? SIN is in us. So, GOD DOES IT INSTEAD. GOD grants eternal life without our works. And then he empowers us to love the way Law failed to get us to love.

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Commentators on Romans 8.

Rom 8:3 KJV For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

JOHN GILL:
For what the law could not do,.... This is not to be understood of "the law of the mind", in opposition to "the law of sin", which indeed is very feeble and impotent; man had a power originally of obeying the divine commands, but through sin he has lost his strength and power; and even a renewed mind cannot perform what it would, which is owing to the flesh, or corrupt nature; it has strong desires after holiness, and keeping all the commandments of God; but these desires cannot be fulfilled by it, and indeed without Christ it can do no good thing: nor is the ceremonial law intended, though this is weak, and there are many things it could not do; it could not expiate and atone for sin; nor remove the guilt of it, nor cleanse from the filth of it: But the moral law is here designed; this, though it can, and does accuse of sin, can convince of it, can curse, condemn, and condemn to death for it; yet it could not condemn sin itself, which is only abolished by Christ; it cannot restrain from sin, nor change a sinful nature, nor sanctify an impure heart; nor free from the guilt of sin, nor comfort a distressed mind under a sense of it, it cannot subject persons, or bring them to before God, or give life, or save from death; the reason is,

in that, or because

it was weak through the flesh. The weakness of the law is total and universal, it has no strength at all; though not original and natural, but accidental; it is owing to the flesh, or the corrupt nature of man: or rather the weakness is in sinful men, and not in the law; and the sense is this, that human nature is so weakened by sin, that it is incapable of fulfilling the law; the weakness of the law is not from itself, but from man:


Rom 8:3-4 KJV For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: (4) That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

ADAM CLARKE:
For what the law could not do - The law could not pardon; the law could not sanctify; the law could not dispense with its own requisitions; it is the rule of righteousness, and therefore must condemn unrighteousness. This is its unalterable nature. Had there been perfect obedience to its dictates, instead of condemning, it would have applauded and rewarded; but as the flesh, the carnal and rebellious principle, had prevailed, and transgression had taken place, it was rendered weak, inefficient to undo this word of the flesh, and bring the sinner into a state of pardon and acceptance with God.

God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh - Did that which the law could not do; i.e. purchased pardon for the sinner, and brought every believer into the favor of God. And this is effected by the incarnation of Christ: He, in whom dwelt the fullness of the Godhead bodily, took upon him the likeness of sinful flesh, that is, a human body like ours, but not sinful as ours; and for sin, και περι ἁμαρτιας, and as a Sacrifice for Sin, (this is the sense of the word in a multitude of places), condemned sin in the flesh - condemned that to death and destruction which had condemned us to both.

[shazeep]

I am curious now if you know of some exposition on this, or if any other Christian believes this.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by shazeep

I am curious now if you know of some exposition on this, or if any other Christian believes this.

They certainly do. Want me to provide commentary as witness? It is really basic, Shazeep. I am not kidding.