Once Saved Always Saved

[shazeep]

What is not possible is defining the cross so as to suit oneself, and then demanding slavish insistence upon a method that is made manifest by its fruit. No one seems to be getting buried, wadr. If what you espouse is correct, then what need for new sects, to reinterpret it? If you pick the wrong one, are you lost?

The best that one in that position could do, imo, is to forget everything Rhema taught them, and go figure out "Love one another," because, sad to say, but the first seems to annul the second, and most often just bring people to "All Muslims are lost." (="i did not get buried, and anyone can tell this because i talk just like my secular neighbor.") If this is true, then why are we importing Muslims? Looks to me like it is their borders that are increasing, even as we validate war in...everywhere, not even realizing where the validation is coming from.

[shazeep]

a simple poll of new converts will reveal that OPs encourage OSAS--ask any convert, coming up from your "baptism," if they believe that they are now "saved." Like you believe. Isn't this OSAS in a nutshell? If not, how not?

[shazeep]

the obvious answer being that you either hold OSAS, or that someone may backslide, and fall out of grace, correct? Assuming the second, how can you also hold that works do not save you? It isn't even consistent.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by shazeep

the obvious answer being that you either hold OSAS, or that someone may backslide, and fall out of grace, correct? Assuming the second, how can you also hold that works do not save you? It isn't even consistent.

You clearly don't get the point of salvation by works.

Losing something or throwing it away that you did not pay for, after it was freely given to you, is a perfectly understandable scenario without confusion. Losing something does not nullify the fact it was freely given.

But you keep abounding the actual scriptures. And you did not answer if there are passages in the bible you honestly question.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by shazeep

a simple poll of new converts will reveal that OPs encourage OSAS--ask any convert, coming up from your "baptism," if they believe that they are now "saved." Like you believe. Isn't this OSAS in a nutshell? If not, how not?

Simple. It's not. Why? Because purposeful sin without heart felt repentance loses salvation.

Funny how you can't see that, not to be insulting. Why stick to salvation by works so vehemently, though? It only serves to exalt self. And true cross understanding does not exalt self. You say you deny salvation by works, but how is loving one another for salvation not salvation by works?

[shazeep]

Originally Posted by mfblume

how is loving one another for salvation not salvation by works?

well, how is purposeful sin without heart felt repentance not losing salvation, by works? If i can't be saved by works, then it follows that i can't be lost by them either, doesn't it?

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by shazeep

well, how is purposeful sin without heart felt repentance not losing salvation, by works? If i can't be saved by works, then it follows that i can't be lost by them either, doesn't it?

I already stated that you can be given something freely and then throw it away or lose it. If someone gave you something you never earned, can you not lose it? Does the fact that it was a free gift make it impossible to lose? If not then what is there about my scenario that makes it impossible to lose salvation if it was freely given?

Salvation is not given freely because God knows we could not even keep it if he did not overlook subsequent sins as much as he knows we could never earn it to begin with.

Consider that entrance into heaven for a sinner requires payment. Debt. Sin's debt is death. Nothing else pays that debt. Not loving one another. Not walking 1000 old ladies across the street. Death.

And attempts at doing something to get into heaven is salvation by works to earn it.

This is the basic point of the gospel. Have you seriously never had that explained? I'm not trying to insult you. I am sincerely asking.

If you cannot lose salvation since it's not attained by works then I cannot give you a Christmas present and you lose it. Have you ever lost a gift given to you? Yes! So why is it so hard to understand what I'm saying? It appears you're saying all this to avoid the fact that salvation is not by works. Why such an aversion to it? Is it your emotions not wanting to think all other religious adherents are lost? Is it that gut feeling I was talking about, saying surely God would not do that?

You are not answering my question though. How is loving one another to go to heaven not salvation by works?

You don't answer my questions. I answered yours. You done say what you feel the passages I cited actually say if you think I'm wrong. It seems you simply don't want to seriously know this answer for some reason.

Why?

[mfblume]

Shazeep,

We can't go about this all incorrectly. The bible is the issue, not you or me. The first thing to deal with is the scriptures I claim teach the cross is the only way to salvation and that salvation is not by works. Those are the issues you are not accepting. So, first find out if the bible is indeed teaching these things. Don't avoid that basis and foundation like you are. Check for yourself and see if I am right or not. Don't look for fault in what I'm saying. Honestly give it a chance by looking in those passages I presented and see if they're saying what I claim without any preconceived notions.

Be Berean. like so few really are.

Acts 17:10-11 And the brethren immediately sent away Paul and Silas by night unto Berea: who coming thither went into the synagogue of the Jews. (11) These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

If the bible is teaching salvation cannot be by works, then the next step to take is deal with your issue of how you think that means it cannot be lost by our sins. To me, there's no issue. If a person freely gives you something it's not impossible to lose it.

But you are not dealing with the issue properly. Forget whether or not salvation can be lost. First deal with whether or not it is without works.

I think personally your; flesh has an aversion to this like anybody else's does. Flesh is enmity against the things of God and is not subject to them. Romans 8. Our flesh wants to throw its two cents in there somewhere. And it will fight tooth and nail to obtain that possibility. It's from self-exaltation. Self can boast if it goes to heaven based upon its own merits and goodness.

Ephesians 2:7-10 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. (8) For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: (9) Not of works, lest any man should boast. (10) For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

We are HIS workmanship, not our own workmanship. He does the works, not us. We only believe to walk into that work of His. The walking in is not earning heaven nor efficacious enough for God to say, "Well that was quite the walk over from there to here, to me! I think you deserve Heaven!" No, we walk TO the work that He accomplished to provide our salvation. The work of the cross.

Now, don't look to those who are self righteous, who claim they're saved by grace and not works, in order to say people who preach salvation by works prove that doctrine is wrong by their fruits. We do not compare ourselves with ourselves. We compare ourselves with what thew Word teaches, whether no one on earth is truly living it or not. let God be true and every man a liar. So get into the Book, and see if those verses teach what I claim or not. The truth is there are self righteous people who exalt themselves while proclaiming correctly the cross alone saves. But they're not even carrying their crosses like Jesus said we must do. So He never knew them up until this point. Just because some believers are inconsistent, does not mean the Word itself does not covers all the bases and teaches a properly balanced perspective on the issue.

But it really seems like you're doing your best to reject the notion that the cross alone saves and that salvation is not of works.

To go about to achieve your own righteousness is bypassing the cross, which is God's work to make US righteous, and establishing your own. That is why Christ is a stumblingstone.

Romans 10:1-4 Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved. (2) For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge. (3) For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God. (4) For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

Belief is not earning salvation. Works are attempts at earning salvation.

1 Peter 2:6-8 Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded. (7) Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner, (8) And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.

Notice the emphasis upon BELIEF in those two passages. To people who know they cannot earn heaven, and realize they can only BELIEVE, disallowing for any good works to save them, Jesus is precious. But to those who try to WORK their way into heaven he is a stumblingblock.

Trip trip trip.

[shazeep]

Originally Posted by mfblume

How is loving one another to go to heaven not salvation by works?

well, it is salvation by works, of course; if "throwing the gift away" is damnation by works. Works either affect one's salvation, or they do not. You can't have it both ways. You either embrace OSAS or salvation by works.

And, i guess it is not salvation by works if the works come from faith, rather than a belief that you can earn your way to forgiveness. So i guess "forgive, and you will be forgiven" should be "be forgiven, and you will forgive." Either that or we might seek a better understanding of "not by works, lest any man should boast." Does that verse have any backup?

I'm doing this to highlight the absurdity of believing that one is qualified to determine "saved or lost" in another individual, or even themselves. Aside from displaying a complete lack of humility, it also does no justice to the concept, which i am convinced we completely misinterpret. The proof is in the fact that one cannot say "that guy who just made a solemn confession at the altar, and got baptized, is saved and going to heaven," or "that OP pastor who just got caught in adultery is lost, and going to hell."

[shazeep]

you might, in all humility, guide others to salvation; Acts 2:38 is as good a way as any. If you "hold out to the end" (assuming you are even "holding out" right now ) you might attain salvation yourself. But if someone has convinced you that doing some things in front of a congregation are required, while no other acts are--which always seem to come with a subordination of "love one another" to something else, btw--then i would be cautious.