Does Islam Inspire Terrorism?

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by shazeep

How in the world is "fight those who disagree with the laws of Allah," followed by criticizing the Jews and Christians fr believing things ALLAH SAYS ARE NOT TRUE, implying Jews and Christians disagree with the laws of Allah, not saying fight Christians and Jews?

by not cutting the passage off before it is finished, like a chump, and taking the sense of the whole passage, along with other passages that clearly state that any Jew or Christian who is not a raging hypocrite is a brother, as far as any practicing Muslim is concerned. Or, explaining the verses in the Bible that advocate violence, that many new Christians, similarly unaware of the context, struggle with. (Of course, i don't mean this for you, Mike).

Sorry. I read it all and the text says those who claim they believe it IS God's law that Christ is Son of God are to be fought. I read your assessment of what was said later and see no grounds for your claim the full context does not says what Brown suggested it says. You're reaching for straws on this one. I proved it in my response.

[shazeep]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Sorry. I read it all and the text says those who claim they believe it IS God's law that Christ is Son of God are to be fought. I read your assessment of what was said later and see no grounds for your claim the full context does not says what Brown suggested it says. You're reaching for straws on this one. I proved it in my response.

ok, well if your position is that the Qur'an expressly advises violence against Jews and Christians who are faithful--even though Jews don't believe that Christ was the Son--then you still have no leg to stand on. I will grant that there are passages that a Christian can misinterpret, and you have found one.

Score one against their dogma. There are some others. Of course, you are taking a definition of fought here that is not intended. I am not here to defend anyone's dogma, but you are making a case with one passage, and not applying many, many others. The context in which the Qur'an was written is also being ignored; the RCC--literally 'those who claim they believe...' at that time--was making hell on earth then.

If what you say is true, then it would be impossible for me to, say, find an image of devout Muslims praying with any Jews or Christians (or for that matter cooperating with them in any way, as that would not be fighting). Would that be a fair assumption?

[deacon blues]

Evidently some here have an income that allows for an inexhaustible presence on AFF.

Just to inform you all: YOU WILL NEVER GET THE LAST WORD...

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by shazeep

ok, well if your position is that the Qur'an expressly advises violence against Jews and Christians who are faithful--even though Jews don't believe that Christ was the Son--

See? Talk about misreading. They Quran said Jews believe Ezra is the son of God. Taht was grounds for them to fight Jews.

then you still have no leg to stand on. I will grant that there are passages that a Christian can misinterpret, and you have found one.

Reaching fro straws, just as you said it's a matter of interpretation when John flatly stated denial of the son is antichrist and Koran says God has no son in many instances. How can anyone talk to you? You twist plain statements.

Score one against their dogma. There are some others. Of course, you are taking a definition of fought here that is not intended.

Oh, now FIGHT is up for interpretation!!!

Unreal.

I am not here to defend anyone's dogma, but you are making a case with one passage, and not applying many, many others.

I said everything Brown listed was not out of context, but you're apt to twisting things.

The context in which the Qur'an was written is also being ignored; the RCC--literally 'those who claim they believe...' at that time--was making hell on earth then.

Matters not. They said fight christians because christians believe Jesus is son of God and it is unlawful to ALLAH to believe He has a son. Funny why that and the Jews' alleged belief in Ezra as son of God was mentioned first before anything to do with greed, etc.

If what you say is true, then it would be impossible for me to, say, find an image of devout Muslims praying with any Jews or Christians (or for that matter cooperating with them in any way, as that would not be fighting). Would that be a fair assumption?

Hey, it's their book and it said what it said. You talk about many christians disobeying the bible.

[shazeep]

Ah, you give me more honor than i deserve. So, to bolster my argument, which after all we have barely started, i'll go back and pick a random quote from the meme, and we'll follow it out. I'm thinking #2.

And i'll grant right now that of course Islam--if not the Qur'an--inspires terrorism, in terrorists. Christianity is no different, however.

"Terrorize non Muslims"
Qur'an 8:12 is apparently often abused, there are entire pages on the matter http://www.islam101.com/terror/verse8_12.htm
and any Christian reading the verse can immediately see parallels

8:60 please. just read 8:59
And let not those who disbelieve suppose that they can outstrip (Allah's Purpose). Lo! they cannot escape. and 8:61
And if they incline to peace, incline thou also to it, and trust in Allah. Lo! He, even He, is the Hearer, the Knower.

3:151 "We shall cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve"
well yikes that pretty much describes proselytizing explain the difference.
but believers of another monotheistic faith are not regarded as unbelievers by the Qur'an, if they are faithful. I have read this in many places. It would take me some time to search as i don't recall the language, but if someone insists i can do this.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by shazeep

Ah, you give me more honor than i deserve. So, to bolster my argument, which after all we have barely started, i'll go back and pick a random quote from the meme, and we'll follow it out. I'm thinking #2.

And i'll grant right now that of course Islam--if not the Qur'an--inspires terrorism, in terrorists. Christianity is no different, however.

Like there's scads of christian terrorist groups to equate the number of islamic terrorists.

Funny why the Islamic peace lovers are not spending their billions of oil finances on stopping Isis. But continue...

"Terrorize non Muslims"
Qur'an 8:12 is apparently often abused, there are entire pages on the matter http://www.islam101.com/terror/verse8_12.htm
and any Christian reading the verse can immediately see parallels

Empty claim, but let's have at it.

8:12 [Remember] when your Lord inspired to the angels, "I am with you, so strengthen those who have believed. I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieved, so strike [them] upon the necks and strike from them every fingertip."

Let's look at context:

8:2 The believers are only those who, when Allah is mentioned, their hearts become fearful, and when His verses are recited to them, it increases them in faith; and upon their Lord they rely -

So, we see who the believers are. The ones whose hearts fear when allah is mentioned and when his verses -- Koran's words -- are recited. So, those who do not honour the Koran nor their version of God are believers, and hence are unbelievers.

The rest toward verse 12 is simply general encouragements to believers of allah.

Then we read they following about those who do not believe.:

13 That is because they opposed Allah and His Messenger. And whoever opposes Allah and His Messenger - indeed, Allah is severe in penalty.

Here we see a reinforcement of what believers are, letting us know in implication what unbelievers are. And remember, the unbelievers must have terror struck in their hearts. Hence, terrorism is concluded by folks like ISIS.

So much for being out of context. allah will strike terror in the hearts of those who do not love to hear the koran's verses recited.

Yep, easy to confuse!

8:60 please. just read 8:59
And let not those who disbelieve suppose that they can outstrip (Allah's Purpose). Lo! they cannot escape. and 8:61
And if they incline to peace, incline thou also to it, and trust in Allah. Lo! He, even He, is the Hearer, the Knower.

Let's read more:

59 And let not those who disbelieve think they will escape. Indeed, they will not cause failure [to Allah ].

Disbelieve what? Who are these people who disbelieve? Those who reject the words of allah, giving grounds for muslims to fight them?

60 And prepare against them whatever you are able of power and of steeds of war by which you may terrify the enemy of Allah and your enemy and others besides them whom you do not know [but] whom Allah knows. And whatever you spend in the cause of Allah will be fully repaid to you, and you will not be wronged.
61 And if they incline to peace, then incline to it [also] and rely upon Allah . Indeed, it is He who is the Hearing, the Knowing.
62 But if they intend to deceive you - then sufficient for you is Allah . It is He who supported you with His help and with the believers
63 And brought together their hearts. If you had spent all that is in the earth, you could not have brought their hearts together; but Allah brought them together. Indeed, He is Exalted in Might and Wise.
64 O Prophet, sufficient for you is Allah and for whoever follows you of the believers.

What is the context of the point of the unbelievers having peace? Is it compliance to obey the Koran? Is that how they determine peace? And are those who disagree and reject the koran considered those who respond without peace?

Beyond all of that, even, the point is the people are encouraged to FIGHT in certain conditions. Christianity's New Testament says we FIGHT NO ONE.

But if they have peace with muslims then muslims are encouraged to have peace with them in turn. When? When the muslims bring their faith and there is no resistance to accepting it? Peace in accepting it? We are not told. What is the context of this peace it speaks of after Muslims are encouraged to fight unbelievers?

3:151 "We shall cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve"
well yikes that pretty much describes proselytizing explain the difference.
but believers of another monotheistic faith are not regarded as unbelievers by the Qur'an, if they are faithful. I have read this in many places. It would take me some time to search as i don't recall the language, but if someone insists i can do this.

Wrong. Believers are only considered so according to the verse that flatly defines a believer:

8:2 The believers are only those who, when Allah is mentioned, their hearts become fearful, and when His verses are recited to them, it increases them in faith; and upon their Lord they rely -

Try again, Shazeep. This is a benefit! It brings to light things you might regret.

[shazeep]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Hey, it's their book and it said what it said. You talk about many christians disobeying the bible.

well, either i am twisting or i am not. Twisting can also be viewed as regarding the other pov. Read what you like--but when it comes down to cases, if what you believe is true, then no Muslim would ever cooperate with a Christian or Jew in any way, let alone pray with them. And surely not allow themselves to be photographed doing this--they would be ostracized, wouldn't they?

And of course you already know that i could dig up an image of A Muslim--and not just any Muslim, either; prominent Imams, multiple--praying together with Jews and Christians. So there is a dichotomy, a disconnect, a lie here, somewhere. Once again, it comes down to what are you seeking?

Why do you claim to follow Whom shall i fear? yet quite obviously invest yourselves in Fear Islam! How can anyone come to any other conclusion than that you are raging hypocrites, like your masters?

You think you are fit to judge Muslims, when you can't even judge yourselves? And further, you imagine that you can mock God without consequences. Shame on you. You will be the same ones who, gee, just cannot figure out why your children detest you, and date Muslims.

Do what you will do, but don't be surprised, ok? God will be served even in this, so since you have warning, you can maybe invent some justification to your friends for why your daughter is marrying a Muslim.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by shazeep

well, either i am twisting or i am not. Twisting can also be viewed as regarding the other pov. Read what you like--but when it comes down to cases, if what you believe is true, then no Muslim would ever cooperate with a Christian or Jew in any way, let alone pray with them. And surely not allow themselves to be photographed doing this--they would be ostracized, wouldn't they?

And of course you already know that i could dig up an image of A Muslim--and not just any Muslim, either; prominent Imams, multiple--praying together with Jews and Christians. So there is a dichotomy, a disconnect, a lie here, somewhere. Once again, it comes down to what are you seeking?

Why do you claim to follow Whom shall i fear? yet quite obviously invest yourselves in Fear Islam! How can anyone come to any other conclusion than that you are raging hypocrites, like your masters?

You think you are fit to judge Muslims, when you can't even judge yourselves? And further, you imagine that you can mock God without consequences. Shame on you. You will be the same ones who, gee, just cannot figure out why your children detest you, and date Muslims.

Do what you will do, but don't be surprised, ok? God will be served even in this, so since you have warning, you can maybe invent some justification to your friends for why your daughter is marrying a Muslim.

Do muslims think Christians are lost?

[shazeep]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Try again, Shazeep. This is a benefit! It brings to light things you might regret.

there is no "try," it will not even be a problem. The verses are not hard to find, they are just hidden from you because you seek evil. I'll dig a couple up for you, and you can twist them to your ends, since you are so determined to fear Muslims. It'll be this afternoon.

[mfblume]

Shazeep,

If Muslims think Christians are lost, that would not stop them from hedging into Christian territories and praying side by side. I think Muslims are lost and I would pray side by side with them, to get the influence of Christ to them. I think their god doesn't exist, so I 'd have nothing to fear.

Please elaborate on your reasoning about this issue.