Numerical Growth Is Not A Sign Of Revival...

[consapente89]

two things I've seen mentioned that I concur with...fake infillings and lack of discipleship.

We have people in our assembly that come in one time walk to the altar, receive the Holy Ghost and we never see them again. Personally, I don't think they ever intended to stay. Usually the people that stick are the ones who come to God over a period of time as the Lord deals with them and the hear the preached word of God.

Almost every new convert in our assembly is the recipient of one on one Bible studies focused on Apostolic Doctrine. People who submit themselves to teaching rarely leave, I find.

I have been in many campmeetings and such where people seeking the Holy Ghost are slapped on the head and shaken by a sweaty frothy mouthed preacher until they start a little "lalalalala" or "dadada" and then they are told they have the Holy Ghost. That's not how we do it at our church. We make it a point that we do not say "so and so just received the Holy Ghost" until they have gotten to a place where the Holy Ghost is flowing freely for a period of time. People need to be totally surrendered to the Holy Ghost when they receive it. We also look for "language" to flow, not just "stammering lips".

[shazeep]

Originally Posted by allstate1

SO if one passes away in your idea of a process of being saved what happens to them?

"No one knows where they go when they die." But i would suggest that, since "All go to the same place," Samuel's answer to Saul through the Witch of Endor might at least provide a much better clue than our current dogma. So, i don't know, and I'm not interested in providing a false sense of security to anyone for money.

So now you answer one; was Constantine "saved," having "done" Acts 2:38 on his deathbed?

[allstate1]

Originally Posted by shazeep

"No one knows where they go when they die." But i would suggest that, since "All go to the same place," Samuel's answer to Saul through the Witch of Endor might at least provide a much better clue than our current dogma. So, i don't know, and I'm not interested in providing a false sense of security to anyone for money.

So now you answer one; was Constantine "saved," having "done" Acts 2:38 on his deathbed?

don't know don't care. I only worry about me.

[shazeep]

Originally Posted by allstate1

don't know don't care. I only worry about me.

well understand that it goes to the question of "does Acts 2:38 save you?" If so, then Constantine was saved, right? Yes, this is a loaded question. No, Constantine was whacked, and supposed that he could accept Christ on his terms, like most people even today do. Many will cry Lord, Lord.

You say that "we are all doomed" if we must come to approximate the model of believers presented after Acts 2:38, and i suggest that this is most likely the closest we come to truth in the matter.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by allstate1

I believe one is saved with repentance and baptism receiving the Gift of the Holy Spirit. Sure one needs to be a follower of Jesus Christ. However ones degree of understanding, commitment, participation etc. will vary from another. This does not mean one is saved the other is not. I believe one can sit on a church pew for years never be "active" and is still saved. I believe one can be involved in everything in a local assembly let a few cuss words slip at work and they are also saved. I also believe these same people can be "lost". I believe one can be trying their best to kick nicotine and still be saved. The difference being who ask for forgiveness. Salvation does not and cannot depend on our human capability of remaining sin free. The Blood of Jesus Christ washes us white as snow. A works based salvation completely abolishes what happened at Calvary!

Jesus said "Count the cost" in the context of deciding to follow him. The Great Commission is a commission to MAKE DISCIPLES, not get folks "saved first, worry about discipleship later."

One cannot be saved outside of being added to the church of God, being saved means being made a part of Christ's Body, being made part of Christ's family. The call to repentance IS the call to discipleship, death to self, the call to FOLLOW JESUS, to become one of his disciples.

Takes less than 60 seconds for an evangelist to explain it.

[allstate1]

Originally Posted by shazeep

well understand that it goes to the question of "does Acts 2:38 save you?" If so, then Constantine was saved, right? Yes, this is a loaded question. No, Constantine was whacked, and supposed that he could accept Christ on his terms, like most people even today do. Many will cry Lord, Lord.

I believe obeying Acts 2:38 saves you, even on ones death bed. Only God knows ones heart. With that being said God is not shallow. I will have to explain that statement later.

[shazeep]

Originally Posted by allstate1

I believe obeying Acts 2:38 saves you, even on ones death bed. Only God knows ones heart. With that being said God is not shallow. I will have to explain that statement later.

ok, well, i used to believe that, and now i believe OPs are Constantinianism 2.0, not to say that some OPs--most likely 4 --won't figure it out

[allstate1]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Jesus said "Count the cost" in the context of deciding to follow him. The Great Commission is a commission to MAKE DISCIPLES, not get folks "saved first, worry about discipleship later."

One cannot be saved outside of being added to the church of God, being saved means being made a part of Christ's Body, being made part of Christ's family. The call to repentance IS the call to discipleship, death to self, the call to FOLLOW JESUS, to become one of his disciples.

Takes less than 60 seconds for an evangelist to explain it.

I can agree with that. However how do we judge ones level of understanding this before baptism? I believe repentance and baptism makes you a part of the body. like I said before any expectation that you have of a person "understanding" or level of discipleship before baptism or salvation neglects Calvary!!

[allstate1]

Originally Posted by shazeep

ok, well, i used to believe that, and now i believe OPs are Constantinianism 2.0, not to say that some OPs--most likely 4 --won't figure it out

I don't understand you. not being sarcastic. In your belief how and when is one saved?

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by allstate1

I can agree with that. However how do we judge ones level of understanding this before baptism? I believe repentance and baptism makes you a part of the body. like I said before any expectation that you have of a person "understanding" or level of discipleship before baptism or salvation neglects Calvary!!

Nothing I have said or suggested neglects Calvary!

Here's what I am saying: When the Gospel is presented to people, it must include the idea of discipleship. The Gospel is not the gospel of 'get your ticket punched so you can die and go to heaven.' That is 'easy believism', whether we say 'repeat this prayer and that's what will get you heaven' or whether we say 'come and get baptised and filled with the Holy Ghost, that's what will get you to heaven.' When we take that approach, we create self centered professors of religion who more often than not fall away rather quickly.

The Gospel is the Gospel of the Kingdom of God. It has a Message: God is King, you have broken the laws of His Kingdom, and as a rebel you will be punished, but Christ has died for you and rose again so that you can have your sins blotted out and you can become a fine, upstanding citizen of His Kingdom, meaning you can be justified and declared righteous.

If when we present the gospel to people we make it clear we are talking about them getting involved in something bigger than themselves, bigger than you or me, that the call to follow Jesus is the call to be a part of the Kingdom of God which is eternal, if we make it plain that the call to follow Jesus is a call to be a part of what He is doing in this earth, a call to come out from among the world and become one of the Lord's people, to become part of the family of God, then people will understand that being baptised into the name of the Lord is not all about them and them alone. But that it's about being adopted into the family of God, being made part of the 'commonwealth of Israel', that it's about being made part of the Bride and Church of Christ.

In John's Gospel we read about people being baptised. In ch 3 and 4 it talks about those who were becoming disciples of Jesus, they were being baptised. Becoming a disciple, following the Master, joining in with the community of the faithful (the church), is inseperable from being baptised.

Christ died to redeem a people unto himself. Not just individuals, but A PEOPLE. As individuals we are saved and are made part of a community, an ekklesia (church) which is a gathering TOGETHER of people called out from the world.

When people are ready to be baptised, to make a commitment to SERVE AND FOLLOW JESUS, they ought to have counted the cost first, just like Jesus said to do. The cost is to die to oneself. To die to one's own personal plans, schemes, and dreams for oneself. Jesus said we have to be willing to forsake it all, to hate mother, father, sister, brother, yea and our own life also, in order to be his disciple. And anyone putting their hand to the plow and looking back is not fit for his kingdom.

That's a pretty serious commitment. Committing to Jesus is the single most serious and important commitment a human being can possibly make. Yet, many people put far more thought into what they will have for dinner than they do into what their ETERNAL destiny will be. Because they think of their eternal destiny as a destinATION instead of a WAY, and a LIFE.

And the fault is almost certainly in the lap of whoever is presenting the gospel to them.