Numerical Growth Is Not A Sign Of Revival...

[allstate1]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Nothing I have said or suggested neglects Calvary!

Here's what I am saying: When the Gospel is presented to people, it must include the idea of discipleship. The Gospel is not the gospel of 'get your ticket punched so you can die and go to heaven.' That is 'easy believism', whether we say 'repeat this prayer and that's what will get you heaven' or whether we say 'come and get baptised and filled with the Holy Ghost, that's what will get you to heaven.' When we take that approach, we create self centered professors of religion who more often than not fall away rather quickly.

The Gospel is the Gospel of the Kingdom of God. It has a Message: God is King, you have broken the laws of His Kingdom, and as a rebel you will be punished, but Christ has died for you and rose again so that you can have your sins blotted out and you can become a fine, upstanding citizen of His Kingdom, meaning you can be justified and declared righteous.

If when we present the gospel to people we make it clear we are talking about them getting involved in something bigger than themselves, bigger than you or me, that the call to follow Jesus is the call to be a part of the Kingdom of God which is eternal, if we make it plain that the call to follow Jesus is a call to be a part of what He is doing in this earth, a call to come out from among the world and become one of the Lord's people, to become part of the family of God, then people will understand that being baptised into the name of the Lord is not all about them and them alone. But that it's about being adopted into the family of God, being made part of the 'commonwealth of Israel', that it's about being made part of the Bride and Church of Christ.

In John's Gospel we read about people being baptised. In ch 3 and 4 it talks about those who were becoming disciples of Jesus, they were being baptised. Becoming a disciple, following the Master, joining in with the community of the faithful (the church), is inseperable from being baptised.

Christ died to redeem a people unto himself. Not just individuals, but A PEOPLE. As individuals we are saved and are made part of a community, an ekklesia (church) which is a gathering TOGETHER of people called out from the world.

When people are ready to be baptised, to make a commitment to SERVE AND FOLLOW JESUS, they ought to have counted the cost first, just like Jesus said to do. The cost is to die to oneself. To die to one's own personal plans, schemes, and dreams for oneself. Jesus said we have to be willing to forsake it all, to hate mother, father, sister, brother, yea and our own life also, in order to be his disciple. And anyone putting their hand to the plow and looking back is not fit for his kingdom.

That's a pretty serious commitment. Committing to Jesus is the single most serious and important commitment a human being can possibly make. Yet, many people put far more thought into what they will have for dinner than they do into what their ETERNAL destiny will be. Because they think of their eternal destiny as a destinATION instead of a WAY, and a LIFE.

And the fault is almost certainly in the lap of whoever is presenting the gospel to them.

I can agree with most everything . But expecting an unchurched person to understand all of that before baptism with baptism being necessary for salvation is stretching it for me!

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by consapente89

two things I've seen mentioned that I concur with...fake infillings and lack of discipleship.

We have people in our assembly that come in one time walk to the altar, receive the Holy Ghost and we never see them again. Personally, I don't think they ever intended to stay. Usually the people that stick are the ones who come to God over a period of time as the Lord deals with them and the hear the preached word of God.

Almost every new convert in our assembly is the recipient of one on one Bible studies focused on Apostolic Doctrine. People who submit themselves to teaching rarely leave, I find.

I have been in many campmeetings and such where people seeking the Holy Ghost are slapped on the head and shaken by a sweaty frothy mouthed preacher until they start a little "lalalalala" or "dadada" and then they are told they have the Holy Ghost. That's not how we do it at our church. We make it a point that we do not say "so and so just received the Holy Ghost" until they have gotten to a place where the Holy Ghost is flowing freely for a period of time. People need to be totally surrendered to the Holy Ghost when they receive it. We also look for "language" to flow, not just "stammering lips".

I never tell anyone 'you received the Holy Ghost' nor do I say 'So and So received the Holy Ghost'. I have said many times 'if you received the Holy Ghost then you will shout the victory and testify all on your own without me having to give a stamp of approval'.

There used to be a time when folks would pray through and then testify to what God had done for them and in them. Now, we don't give them that opportunity, and I fear a lot of people have been given a false hope and we have made them rather comfortable on their continued flight to the lake of fire, instead of throwing open the door, thrusting a parachute in their hands, and earnestly pleading with them to put it on, jump, and pull the cord.

[shazeep]

Originally Posted by allstate1

I don't understand you. not being sarcastic. In your belief how and when is one saved?

well, when they "hold out to the end," as Scripture says--assuming that they ever even begin "holding out," that is. How many new converts would be interested if you told them that they had to abandon their old way of life and leave the world, or they were doomed? Of course, we do not have the community for them to leave the world for; but neither did the Apostles, in going out to various towns, with no extra shirt, etc.

[allstate1]

Originally Posted by shazeep

well, when they "hold out to the end," as Scripture says--assuming that they ever even begin "holding out," that is. How many new converts would be interested if you told them that they had to abandon their old way of life and leave the world, or they were doomed? Of course, we do not have the community for them to leave the world for; but neither did the Apostles, in going out to various towns, with no extra shirt, etc.

Im sorry I must be blonde I cannot follow your thought pattern.

[shazeep]

Originally Posted by Esaias

And the fault is almost certainly in the lap of whoever is presenting the gospel to them.

I'm not sure that's entirely fair, unless pastors are priests over others. People hear what they want to hear, and go to a pastor for a quick fix. This is not the pastor's fault. If there is a Bible in your language, listening to another human should be to expand your understanding, imo, not to spoon feed it to you. If you think Acts 2:38 saves you, it is because some guy convinced you of that, not because you came to that conclusion after studying the Bible.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by allstate1

I can agree with most everything . But expecting an unchurched person to understand all of that before baptism with baptism being necessary for salvation is stretching it for me!

How is that too hard for someone to made to understand? I can present it in less than five minutes to anyone who is willing to listen. And if they do not understand, then would we not take the time to explain the gospel to them? It's pretty simple: You wanna live forever? Then come follow Jesus, become his disciple.

See? Pretty simple.

Heb 6 talks abut the 'foundational elements' of the doctrine of Christ. It lists the following: repentance from dead works, faith towards God, baptisms, laying on of hands, resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment. Thats a fully functional outline of a simple, concise, Biblical evangelistic presentation. Every new convert should understand the basics of those simple foundational elements before they even are asked to make a decision!

Repent from dead works - turn from sin and fake, man made religion. Sin is transgression of God's kingdom laws. You're a rebel and under sentence, and pardom cannot be found apart from turning from continued disobedience and unbelief.
Faith towards God - Christ said he is eternal life, he proved it by dying and resurrecting from the dead. He said if you put your trust in him, your sins will be forgiven and you will have eternal life. Faith is more than mental assent, it is a commital of oneself into the care of God, through Jesus Christ.
Baptisms - One needs to be baptised into Christ, via water and Spirit. Water baptism in the name of the Lord is for the remission (pardon) of sins, and it is how we present ourselves to Jesus Christ to be cleansed by his blood. We have to get into his death, burial and resurrection, and we do that in water baptism. And he will come and fill us with his Spirit in fulfillment of all the Bible's promises, just like we see in the book of Acts. And this new birth, of water and Spirit, is how we are baptised into Christ. Because if we are not in Christ we are still in our sins.
Laying on of hands - Laying on of hands was a means of expressing faith and of giving a blessing to someone. The apostles laid hands on people to receive the Spirit, and we do that too. But you must come, you must pray, you must have faith. And we will baptise you and lay hands on you in the name of the Lord, and you can be made a part of the family of God, a part of the Kingdom of God.
Resurrection of the dead - all will die, but nobody is staying in the grave forever. We must ALL appear before the judgement seat of Christ to be judged. We must ALL give account of ourselves before God. There is a resurrection unto life for those in Christ, and a resurrection of damnation for those not in Christ. Which do you want to be a part of?
Eternal judgement - On that judgement day when we all stand before God, we will either be found on the right hand, or on the left hand. We will either be with the sheep, or the goats. The sheep go into eternal life, the goats go into the second death. Either our name is in the Book of Life, or it is not. Which do you want to be a part of? The sheep? Or the goats? Join us, we're following Jesus into glory, and you can too, he's calling you right now! Or, continue on your way, rejecting the call of salvation and deliverance and eternal life, and wind up on the wrong side of the judgement seat.

See? Pretty simple. It doesn't take much to notify someone 'if you want to follow Jesus, it involves a few things. Like death to self and sin, like committing to be his disciple, and being conformed to his image.'

And, if the church is doing those things, dead to self and sin, and following Jesus as his disciples, it is almost guaranteed that whoever RESPONDS to the gospel call will join in and continue, and 'be added to the church'.

The Lord added to the church such as should be saved. Should you be saved? Then, if so, God will add you to the church. He will not leave you off on your own to flounder in isolation.

[allstate1]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Nothing I have said or suggested neglects Calvary!

Here's what I am saying: When the Gospel is presented to people, it must include the idea of discipleship. The Gospel is not the gospel of 'get your ticket punched so you can die and go to heaven.' That is 'easy believism', whether we say 'repeat this prayer and that's what will get you heaven' or whether we say 'come and get baptised and filled with the Holy Ghost, that's what will get you to heaven.' When we take that approach, we create self centered professors of religion who more often than not fall away rather quickly.

The Gospel is the Gospel of the Kingdom of God. It has a Message: God is King, you have broken the laws of His Kingdom, and as a rebel you will be punished, but Christ has died for you and rose again so that you can have your sins blotted out and you can become a fine, upstanding citizen of His Kingdom, meaning you can be justified and declared righteous.

If when we present the gospel to people we make it clear we are talking about them getting involved in something bigger than themselves, bigger than you or me, that the call to follow Jesus is the call to be a part of the Kingdom of God which is eternal, if we make it plain that the call to follow Jesus is a call to be a part of what He is doing in this earth, a call to come out from among the world and become one of the Lord's people, to become part of the family of God, then people will understand that being baptised into the name of the Lord is not all about them and them alone. But that it's about being adopted into the family of God, being made part of the 'commonwealth of Israel', that it's about being made part of the Bride and Church of Christ.

In John's Gospel we read about people being baptised. In ch 3 and 4 it talks about those who were becoming disciples of Jesus, they were being baptised. Becoming a disciple, following the Master, joining in with the community of the faithful (the church), is inseperable from being baptised.

Christ died to redeem a people unto himself. Not just individuals, but A PEOPLE. As individuals we are saved and are made part of a community, an ekklesia (church) which is a gathering TOGETHER of people called out from the world.

When people are ready to be baptised, to make a commitment to SERVE AND FOLLOW JESUS, they ought to have counted the cost first, just like Jesus said to do. The cost is to die to oneself. To die to one's own personal plans, schemes, and dreams for oneself. Jesus said we have to be willing to forsake it all, to hate mother, father, sister, brother, yea and our own life also, in order to be his disciple. And anyone putting their hand to the plow and looking back is not fit for his kingdom.

That's a pretty serious commitment. Committing to Jesus is the single most serious and important commitment a human being can possibly make. Yet, many people put far more thought into what they will have for dinner than they do into what their ETERNAL destiny will be. Because they think of their eternal destiny as a destinATION instead of a WAY, and a LIFE.

And the fault is almost certainly in the lap of whoever is presenting the gospel to them.

Read 1 Corinthians 2

[allstate1]

Originally Posted by Esaias

How is that too hard for someone to made to understand? I can present it in less than five minutes to anyone who is willing to listen. And if they do not understand, then would we not take the time to explain the gospel to them? It's pretty simple: You wanna live forever? Then come follow Jesus, become his disciple.

See? Pretty simple.

Heb 6 talks abut the 'foundational elements' of the doctrine of Christ. It lists the following: repentance from dead works, faith towards God, baptisms, laying on of hands, resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment. Thats a fully functional outline of a simple, concise, Biblical evangelistic presentation. Every new convert should understand the basics of those simple foundational elements before they even are asked to make a decision!

Repent from dead works - turn from sin and fake, man made religion. Sin is transgression of God's kingdom laws. You're a rebel and under sentence, and pardom cannot be found apart from turning from continued disobedience and unbelief.
Faith towards God - Christ said he is eternal life, he proved it by dying and resurrecting from the dead. He said if you put your trust in him, your sins will be forgiven and you will have eternal life. Faith is more than mental assent, it is a commital of oneself into the care of God, through Jesus Christ.
Baptisms - One needs to be baptised into Christ, via water and Spirit. Water baptism in the name of the Lord is for the remission (pardon) of sins, and it is how we present ourselves to Jesus Christ to be cleansed by his blood. We have to get into his death, burial and resurrection, and we do that in water baptism. And he will come and fill us with his Spirit in fulfillment of all the Bible's promises, just like we see in the book of Acts. And this new birth, of water and Spirit, is how we are baptised into Christ. Because if we are not in Christ we are still in our sins.
Laying on of hands - Laying on of hands was a means of expressing faith and of giving a blessing to someone. The apostles laid hands on people to receive the Spirit, and we do that too. But you must come, you must pray, you must have faith. And we will baptise you and lay hands on you in the name of the Lord, and you can be made a part of the family of God, a part of the Kingdom of God.
Resurrection of the dead - all will die, but nobody is staying in the grave forever. We must ALL appear before the judgement seat of Christ to be judged. We must ALL give account of ourselves before God. There is a resurrection unto life for those in Christ, and a resurrection of damnation for those not in Christ. Which do you want to be a part of?
Eternal judgement - On that judgement day when we all stand before God, we will either be found on the right hand, or on the left hand. We will either be with the sheep, or the goats. The sheep go into eternal life, the goats go into the second death. Either our name is in the Book of Life, or it is not. Which do you want to be a part of? The sheep? Or the goats? Join us, we're following Jesus into glory, and you can too, he's calling you right now! Or, continue on your way, rejecting the call of salvation and deliverance and eternal life, and wind up on the wrong side of the judgement seat.

See? Pretty simple. It doesn't take much to notify someone 'if you want to follow Jesus, it involves a few things. Like death to self and sin, like committing to be his disciple, and being conformed to his image.'

And, if the church is doing those things, dead to self and sin, and following Jesus as his disciples, it is almost guaranteed that whoever RESPONDS to the gospel call will join in and continue, and 'be added to the church'.

The Lord added to the church such as should be saved. Should you be saved? Then, if so, God will add you to the church. He will not leave you off on your own to flounder in isolation.

You are missing my point by a mile so im done with this useless time wasting conversation!

[shazeep]

with all due respect, if your point is that Constantine did it right, then your religion is dead.

Originally Posted by allstate1

Im sorry I must be blonde I cannot follow your thought pattern.

ya, i get that a lot.

[shazeep]

Another factor is that salvation is perceived to be an on/off thing, either one is saved or one is lost; when we have many indications that this is not the best perception for the concept.