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  #111  
Old 01-21-2016, 10:19 AM
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Esaias Esaias is offline
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Re: Everybody must have a pastor?

Quote:
Originally Posted by mfblume View Post
Esaias, I'm saying what I already said. I said it may not particularly be a pastor, but everyone needs someone who can correct them and give direction. And pastor simply means shepherd. Take it from here. What do YOU think a shepherd does in the church? You tell me. I know what a shepherd does. So do you. How does that apply to how SOME are shepherds and not all?

Pastors/shepherds also need someone to guide them and correct when they're wrong. It would rarely be something in the WORD in regard to being fed in green pastures or still waters, as a shepherd does for a sheep. But there are instances even that is necessary.

But as I already stated as well, Peter was corrected by Paul and Paul was corrected by Peter.

You asked what a covering is and I shared what I believe: Someone to go to who can also go to you and correct you or advise.

Shepherds lead sheep to feed sheep. I feed my congregation word they can't get on their own. The more I think about it that's a pastor. Saints in hthe church who have that gift also help. And shepherds sit there with the sheep and aid them in hurts etc.

Now where's the responses to my notes from Scripture about despising authorities and body members not all being the foot. .. not all a pastor? Someone said they're their own pastor. How does that not violate the word about bodily members?

The world has a "me on my own" mentality. I strongly disagree with many things on his thread as they are that world concept.
I certainly agree with you about the 'me on my own' mentality. I gave a message not too long ago on the 'myth of a personal relationship with God' that addressed the very subject. We are not called by Christ to be islands in a sea of grace, but we are called to be a PEOPLE. Our relationship with God is not only vertical, but horizontal as well.

I was just trying to understand the 'everybody needs a pastor' concept as far as how it actually worked out in different settings. I am not a member of a denomination that does the whole licensing thing. My relationships with elders in my life would not seem to match the 'everybody needs a pastor' concept using the modern concept of 'pastor'. What you have described is actually much closer to how things work with us. The impression I got when I heard 'everybody needs a pastor' is that pastors (of denominational churches) need to be in a relationship that is mirrored by the relationship the congregants have with their pastor, and I was trying to figure out how that actually worked out in real time.
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  #112  
Old 01-21-2016, 10:55 AM
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Evang.Benincasa Evang.Benincasa is offline
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Re: Everybody must have a pastor?

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Originally Posted by Esaias View Post
I certainly agree with you about the 'me on my own' mentality. I gave a message not too long ago on the 'myth of a personal relationship with God'that addressed the very subject. We are not called by Christ to be islands in a sea of grace, but we are called to be a PEOPLE. Our relationship with God is not only vertical, but horizontal as well.

I was just trying to understand the 'everybody needs a pastor' concept as far as how it actually worked out in different settings. I am not a member of a denomination that does the whole licensing thing. My relationships with elders in my life would not seem to match the 'everybody needs a pastor' concept using the modern concept of 'pastor'. What you have described is actually much closer to how things work with us. The impression I got when I heard 'everybody needs a pastor' is that pastors (of denominational churches) need to be in a relationship that is mirrored by the relationship the congregants have with their pastor, and I was trying to figure out how that actually worked out in real time.
Do you have that message on line?
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  #113  
Old 01-21-2016, 11:08 AM
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Re: Everybody must have a pastor?

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Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa View Post
Do you have that message on line?
The recording was broken down into two parts. I probably rambled on too long lol.



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  #114  
Old 01-21-2016, 11:24 AM
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Re: Everybody must have a pastor?

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Originally Posted by Esaias View Post
The recording was broken down into two parts. I probably rambled on too long lol.



Thanks
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  #115  
Old 01-21-2016, 11:26 AM
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Re: Everybody must have a pastor?

Brother Blume do you have a teaching on line of you teaching on ministerial authority?
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  #116  
Old 01-21-2016, 01:46 PM
returnman returnman is offline
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Re: Everybody must have a pastor?

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Originally Posted by thephnxman View Post
The Ministry and the callings?

Most denoms seem to place the "pastor" over the assembly and the rest
of the Ministry. I believe that thinking is derived from the same spirit that
asked the Prophet Samuel for a king. The people saw the pomposity of
the kingdoms around them, and wanted to partake of the same.

There is only ONE Ministry, but different callings. Each calling is
subject to one another, and are to complement each other.
I think you hit it pretty close and maybe nailed it. There is at least one denom that absolutely refute the word Pastor associated to one man, mainly the preacher. The whole status of onesness pentecostalism is "who's church" you go to.
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  #117  
Old 01-21-2016, 09:49 PM
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Re: Everybody must have a pastor?

Regarding the relationship of Moses to Joshua, Elijah and Elisha, and etc., I submit the following two points for consideration:

1.) We are not in the same covenant.

The promises are different. The priesthood is different. The way the covenant works is different. The mediator of the covenant is different. The experiences are different. The kingdom is different. The rituals are different. The laws are different. The expected conduct is different. The ethnic groups are different. Salvation is different. The stories are different. The way God operates is different.

The idea that any New Covenant individual should, to one man, that is, a pastor, do for him as Joshua did for Moses, and etc., isn't the testimony of New Covenant teachings (and Old Covenant Messianic Prophecies).

The testimony of New Covenant teachings is:

Quote:
And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more (Jeremiah 31:34 with Hebrews 8:11).
Quote:
And all thy children shall be taught of the Lord; and great shall be the peace of thy children (Isaiah 54:13 with John 6:45).
Quote:
For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus... (1 Timothy 2:5).
Quote:
But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ... (1 Corinthians 11:3.
Quote:
But ye [all] are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light... (1 Peter 2:9; [all] inserted for clarity, as the "ye" is plural)
There is no way that any of us can be for a pastor what Joshua was for Moses, Elisha for Elijah, and etc. They made themselves slaves to these individual men. We are not slaves to a pastor. And there is no way a pastor can be for a man what Moses was for Joshua, or Elijah was for Elisha. And on down the list it goes, wherever we see that one to one relationship in the Old Testament.

At some point it has to be admitted, the comparisons very quickly breakdown, which leads to:

2.) Those Old Covenant relationships do serve as a typology, but not as a typology between a New Covenant pastor and a sheep, but rather, as a typology of Christ and a saint.

All those Old Covenant men (Moses, Elijah, etc.) were hand-selected by God, and had His Spirit put upon them with power. They represent the Christ-type. Additionally, their servants (Joshua, Elisha) were handpicked by God, too. They also had God's Spirit put upon them with power. This is the saint-type.

But note: They acted as replacements of and for their masters, i.e. they assumed the Christ-type, when the time came. Joshua replaced Moses when Moses died. Elisha replaced Elijah when he died. They transitioned between types.

If Moses, et al, are merely representative of a New Covenant "pastor", he, the pastor is fulfilling the Christ-type. But guess what? Since Christ has come, no more Old Covenant types are needed. The real deal has arrived, and no one but the entire Body of Christ can be His type, on earth (1 John 4:17).

Additionally, since many saints in today's world, and in times past, have all their life been "under a pastor", they never once get to transition into the Christ-type, the way Joshua, et al, did, EVEN THOUGH THE SPIRIT OF GOD HAS COME UPON THEM WITH POWER. This means regarding typology, there's always someone in the Body of Christ that doesn't get to do their part to fully represent Christ in typology, since their "pastor" is always doing it instead.

This is where the common model breaks down. Are there pastors in the church? Yes, as much as any of the other gifts of grace according to Ephesians 4:11. But does that mean that a pastor has authority over anyone or even in the church?

Where are the words pastor/s and power/authority linked in the New Covenant teachings (Note that 1 Timothy 5:17 doesn't count since the Greek word for "rule" is proestōtes, which means "to take the lead")?

Authority (usually power in the KJV) is always only linked to Jesus and the Apostles (Paul makes reference to his authority in the Gospel).

Bishops and elders are called to be leaders, to stand out in front as examples--as they model their life correctly, their life (more than their words or what they teach) preaches a message to the saints. A pastor/shepherd is called to do what? Feed God's sheep. But how?

We think it means weekly sermons or teaching Bible studies. Nope. Experience is the best teacher, not listening to a lecture. The five grace gifts, pastors included, are given by the Lord to the church, to do what? EQUIP the saints so they can themselves learn how to minister and edify the Body. Modern pastors usually don't, and often, can't do that, especially when someone in the assembly isn't called a to pastoral calling, but rather, to be an evangelist or prophet, or etc. Pastors train pastors, prophets train prophets, etc.

Sitting someone (or a bunch of someones) down and telling them a bunch of Bible facts can be interesting. Things can be learned, intellectually speaking. Sure, that's a given, but only in much the same way sitting in a math or health class. Until the student is at the board or in the gym, all the theoretical learning doesn't accomplish much.

The saints need to be shown (not just told) how to live for God effectively. They need to be the ones doing the majority of the ministering. Maybe I know how to effectively prepare a sermon or pray with someone to receive the Holy Spirit. Great! But am I showing anyone how? Who am I teaching these skills to? Unless and until I as the pastor/minister/leader/etc. get out of the way, no one I am disciplining will ever grow.

Jesus said "I have meat to eat you know not of...My meat is to do the will of the Father..."

That's how sheep ought to be fed, by actually and literally doing the will of the Father! Let them put their own hands on their own life, their own calling, their own ministry, and get to work. Sitting down for several hours a week while someone else does all the "feeding" so-called, doesn't allow for that.

There needs to be a paradigm shift. Consider your own assembly. How many people are effectively serving in the five gifts of grace? How many, even after years, continue to go to the "pastor" for everything? How many "pastors" are worn out, not spending enough time with their families, stressed about all the "sheep under their care", worried about how they can reach their community better, wondering if a new program is going to be successful, hoping enough money comes in this month to pay the bills, and etc.?

Friends, that's not pastoring. That's management. You're in the wrong line of work (lol)!

A pastor is called to the following: tend to God's people with loving, nurturing care while sharing the "sincere milk of the Word". This, more than a sermon, more than Bible study, more than a vision service, more than a building fund, more than a marriage counseling session, more than just about every single thing a modern day "pastor" does, looks like this:

Open you home to the saints. Cook them a meal. Befriend them in your living room. Insist they call you and your wife by your first names. Let them do most of the talking (i.e LISTEN INSTEAD OF PREACH), let their kids play with your kids, show them what a Godly marriage looks like, let them see the joy and bounty of God upon your life, discuss the Word together and openly without dominating the discussion, pray with and not for them, worship with them instead of directing them how to, and etc.

But you might say: that's just fellowship between saints!

Exactly! If the Lord has called you to be a pastor (or anything else), the grace He has given you for such a gifting will manifest everywhere. You won't have to do-do-do-do for the church just to keep the doors open. It will become evident in your loving concern and good treatment of the folks you have over to your house that you are a (not their) pastor. When it comes time for them to listen, they will, but not because you're "the pastor" and that's just what sheep do. But because they know you love them like their Chief Shepherd does, and would lay down your life for them, even if something you might have to say will be difficult for them to hear. They will joyfully yield (as opposed to submit; see the Greek word for submit) because they will see how much you, as a friend and fellow saint, are passionate about THEIR well being.

And I assure you, the saints will appreciate it and you a whole lot more. You won't be so burnt out, so desperate to get a "Word" from the Lord for next Sunday's sermon (Lord, what if there are are visitors?!), so removed from your wife and kids because duty calls (late night board meetings, or whatever), and etc.

You can actually get down to the business of nurturing God's flock the way you were intended to, by the Lord.

I've lived this life, the very one I just described, for the better part of 10 years. It works. It really does. And if you're a pastor, and what I've written speaks to your heart, seek the Lord and find our for yourself.
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Last edited by votivesoul; 01-21-2016 at 10:03 PM.
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  #118  
Old 01-21-2016, 10:06 PM
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Re: Everybody must have a pastor?

Elisha's school of the prophets:

We all may prophesy one by one, correct? We should all covet to prophesy, correct? If there is any typology in the New Covenant for the School of the Prophets in the Old Testament, it would be coming together as a Body and more successfully learning how to operate in the Gifts of the Spirit, under the leading of the Holy Spirit as the Head of the Church gives the unction to use someone.

I don't see anything in Elisha that would make me think of a New Covenant pastor being in charge of a bunch of people. Instead, I see in Elisha and his school Jesus taking us as His students and learning from Him how to correctly manifest and operate His gifts.
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  #119  
Old 01-21-2016, 10:13 PM
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Esaias Esaias is offline
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Re: Everybody must have a pastor?

Quote:
Originally Posted by votivesoul View Post
Sitting someone (or a bunch of someones) down and telling them a bunch of Bible facts can be interesting. Things can be learned, intellectually speaking. Sure, that's a given, but only in much the same way sitting in a math or health class. Until the student is at the board or in the gym, all the theoretical learning doesn't accomplish much.

The saints need to be shown (not just told) how to live for God effectively. They need to be the ones doing the majority of the ministering. Maybe I know how to effectively prepare a sermon or pray with someone to receive the Holy Spirit. Great! But am I showing anyone how? Who am I teaching these skills to? Unless and until I as the pastor/minister/leader/etc. get out of the way, no one I am disciplining will ever grow.

Jesus said "I have meat to eat you know not of...My meat is to do the will of the Father..."

That's how sheep ought to be fed, by actually and literally doing the will of the Father! Let them put their own hands on their own life, their own calling, their own ministry, and get to work. Sitting down for several hours a week while someone else does all the "feeding" so-called, doesn't allow for that.
Can you describe this in a bit more detail? Give some examples, etc?
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  #120  
Old 01-21-2016, 10:25 PM
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Re: Everybody must have a pastor?

Despising dominion from Jude 1:8...

Look at the Greek word for "dominion". Notice what it is! Really notice!

It's kyrioeta, meaning lordship, from the Greek word kyrios, meaning Lord, as used for God and Jesus Christ and for Sarah calling Abraham "lord" in the New Covenant.

It is also used as the root word for katakyrieuontes, as in "exercise lordship over" in Mark 10:42 and Luke 22:25. As in "exercise dominion over" in Matthew 20:25. All things Jesus said the WORLD does to itself, but is something the CHURCH should never do to each other.

It's also the root for the Greek word kyrieuomen, meaning to "lord it over", as in 2 Corinthians 1:24, which reads in the KJV "Not that we have dominion over your faith".

Interestingly, the KJV translators neglected to translate the Greek DEFINITE article tes before "faith". The verse should literally read "Not that we have lord it over the faith of you".

Here, Paul makes it clear that not even he, the Apostle of the Gentiles, has any right to dominate (from dominion) anyone in their faith, which is to say, in their Christianity.

So what is Jude talking about? Is he talking about people refusing to submit to human authority in the church? NOPE. He's talking about people who DESPISE THE LORDSHIP OF JESUS CHRIST, because they, as false teachers, are antichrist (i.e. attempting to replace Jesus and His teachings with themselves and their (false) teachings).

So, how does a false teacher despise Christ's Lordship? By being a lord over God's heritage. And how does a false teacher lord it over God's heritage?

Note the Greek word kyrios really comes down to the idea of being someone who is of greater privilege and rank than someone else, and therefore, gets to be in control and have their way at the expense of everyone beneath them.

So, when anyone in the church, a pastor or anyone, even an apostle, has greater privileges and rights, and is considered of a higher rank than other saints, even if he's a nice and friendly guy, he's automatically, by word definition alone, a "lord" in the Church.

See why being "over" someone in the church is so wrong?

Until all saints are equal under Christ (last shall be first, first shall be last, i.e. equal) and ALL ARE ONE IN CHRIST JESUS, there will continue to be lord's over God's heritage.

Revival will never truly take place church wide. The church will never mature as one, together. There will be no true unity of the faith (can't have unity with someone who is "more equal than others"--cue Animal Farm reference), which means what?

No perfect man or measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ.
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Last edited by votivesoul; 01-21-2016 at 10:29 PM.
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