Numerical Growth Is Not A Sign Of Revival...

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Baptism puts us into the death of Jesus. Romans 6:3. 1 Peter 4 says that as well. Far more than ceremony.

And saying baptism saves means water rescued Noah from a sinful world while God removed it. That's a step beyond being righteous. The water saved him. How does that apply to being righteous already? Peter's point was Noah escaped that whole wicked world and that's more than being righteous while in it. The world perished. The water did something following Noah's righteous walk in the midst of that sinful world by removing him from that world.

Excellent!

[good samaritan]

Originally Posted by Godsdrummer

What gets me is that we miss so much of the reasoning behind baptism. I have heard so many say show me in scripture. The problem is scripture was written 2000 years ago in a complete different society, with different understanding of things. And baptism is one of those things.

Baptism was first and foremost a ceremonial washing, representing the remission of sins. This was a Jewish custom long before the day of Pentecost. Secondly it was a public declaration of becoming a follower of one of the religious sects. Hence Johns baptism and the rebaptism of Johns disciples in Acts 19.

Baptism was not anymore salvational than our keeping or not keeping the Lords Supper on a specific day of the year or not. Or even when on receives the gift of the holy ghost. Faith in the cross is where our salvation is made.

Some will quote Peter saying "baptism doeth also now save us", But we fail to look at the like figure of Noah. Was not Noah already righteous before the flood, hence Noah was saved by the flood not to become righteous but because he was righteous. Hence Peters words, "we are baptized not to be cleansed but as our answer that we have been cleansed".
How were the children saved by the Red Sea? Were they not already the children of God, Yes, they were baptized unto Moses by the Red Sea. Just as we are baptized into Christ by baptism. Hence baptism is more our personal identification to Christ and his kingdom than anything else.

Why did Phillip baptize the Eunuch, if it was just a cultural Jewish practice? Why did Paul mention the baptism of many gentile assemblies when refuting divisions in the church? Why did Jesus get Baptized? To me it would be crazy to think that bapstism is not as essential part of our walk with God (salvation).

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by good samaritan

Why did Phillip baptize the Eunuch, if it was just a cultural Jewish practice? Why did Paul mention the baptism of many gentile assemblies when refuting divisions in the church? Why did Jesus get Baptized? To me it would be crazy to think that bapstism is not as essential part of our walk with God (salvation).

I used to believe the traditional idea that Paul referred to preachers when he referred to the high calling of God. Nope. Study shows it simply to be an overcomer.

[Godsdrummer]

Originally Posted by good samaritan

Why did Phillip baptize the Eunuch, if it was just a cultural Jewish practice? Why did Paul mention the baptism of many gentile assemblies when refuting divisions in the church? Why did Jesus get Baptized? To me it would be crazy to think that bapstism is not as essential part of our walk with God (salvation).

You missed the point baptism was more than just a cultural practice, it was inclusive of several meanings to the Jew. Which is why it must or should be understood before one is baptized. And I never said Baptism was not a part of our being a follower of Christ. I said it was not the point that God see us as righteous in his eyes. Even Paul points this out in Romans 4.

[mfblume]

I think baptism is part of God seeing us righteous. Not the fact we physically did something. That's where people misunderstand baptism and think it's salvation by works. Baptism puts us into the death of Christ. That requires letting go of self. And getting into Christ is getting into righteousness.

"IN" Jesus is righteousness.

1 Corinthians 1:30 KJV But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:

We're not IN Christ by our efforts when we get baptized into Him. It is OF GOD who does an operation of extracting us from Adam and putting us instead into Christ.

Colossians says the same.

Colossians 2:9-12 KJV For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. (10) And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power: (11) In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: (12) Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

Here we see placement IN CHRIST associated once again with baptism. And also the concept of God's work or operation is highlighted, not our own as if we can boast of being baptized. Anybody who boasts of baptism never grasped what it's about. Anybody who looks at it as a work is not seeing the aspect involved of putting us into Christ and His operation.

Jesus is my righteousness, not my good works. His death stands as our deaths, and anyone who also grasps that correctly enough to get saved by it understands baptism puts us into that death where self cannot work to save itself any more than the slaying of a man with all his good works makes that man great in himself in a prideful way.

Paul said he wanted to found of God by being IN CHRIST, which comes by baptism into His death, and not in his own righteousness. So, righteousness is intergrally linked to baptism if we see it puts us into His death.

Philippians 3:8-9 KJV Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ, (9) And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

How do we get into Him?

Romans 6:3 KJV Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

We rise into newness of life which includes possessing HIS RIGHTEOUSNESS after we've been baptized into His death.

[votivesoul]

The key to understanding baptism and what it's for is found in the Greek word aphesis. Some translate it as remission, some as forgiveness. While remission is closer to the real meaning, forgiveness, unfortunately, paints a very bad picture.

Asking for forgiveness and being forgiven, even by God, doesn't require anything more than the asking and receiving. Anyone can say to God, "I'm sorry, God, will you forgive me?" and receive His forgiveness without any form of immersion, whatsoever, as the prerogative to forgive or not is solely in the sovereignty of God.

When Peter says "for the remission of sins", or for the aphesis of sins, it really means a sending off or away. This is not about an emotional plea for God to forgive, so much as it is a legal plea whereby the immersed, by entering into Christ's death, has the body of their sins destroyed.

Just as Christ was destroyed at the cross, and just as we are immersed into His death, and just as He became sin for us (on the cross), and so, nailed them to the tree, when we experience the same death upon His cross, our immersion destroys the body of our sins (i.e. the very sins Christ became when He was destroyed on the cross).

So the question is, Can anyone honestly say they have been rescued from the body of their sins, if the body of their sins has not been destroyed? Without such a destroying, a person simply cannot enter into eternal life. This destroying occurs in immersion providing the person being immersed has fully confessed and repented of their sins.

They have stood apart from the body of their sins, but the body of their sins isn't destroyed until immersion, and when that occurs, the entire destroyed body of their sins is aphesis, i.e. sent away (permanently).

[mfblume]

Amen. Noah again is a good example. The world of sin was DESTROYED by the water, and thereby the water delivered Noah from that world since Noah ENTERED the ark. The Red Sea destroyed the armies of Egypt. Israel was BAPTIZED Unto Moses int en Red Sea. Again, this is beyond being righteous. Entrance into the blood stained doorway saw the destruction of the firstborn of Egypt all around. In each case of ENTRANCE, as baptism PUTS US INTO CHRIST'S death, destruction of wicked is involved.

[Godsdrummer]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Baptism puts us into the death of Jesus. Romans 6:3. 1 Peter 4 says that as well. Far more than ceremony.

And saying baptism saves means water rescued Noah from a sinful world while God removed it. That's a step beyond being righteous. The water saved him. How does that apply to being righteous already? Peter's point was Noah escaped that whole wicked world and that's more than being righteous while in it. The world perished. The water did something following Noah's righteous walk in the midst of that sinful world by removing him from that world.

We Keep dancing around these passages, Romans 6:3, 1 Peter 3:21. Which is it? Is baptism our removal from the world of sin, or joining in the death of Christ? The question is not whether baptism also saves us, but rather in what way and from what.
It seems you teach that baptism is the point that ones sins are washed away. Yet Peter does not say that, he says it is a like figure of the flood. the answer of a clean conscience. The conscience is already clean, how is that because of faith.

Rom 4:1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
Rom 4:2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
Rom 4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
Rom 4:4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
Rom 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Was Abraham circumcised before God counted his righteousness unto him? No God counted Abraham as righteous before circumcision. Just as God counts us righteous before him by simple faith.

I guess what it really comes down to is what we define as salvation. You seem to define salvation as a literal point that can be plotted on a map so to speak, where others can say we saw this or that now you are saved. I on the other hand I do not count salvation by the performance of rituals, rather by the fruits rendered, "you shall know them by there fruits" "and by this shall they know you are my disciples by your love for one another".

It is not a numbers game, where we have an alter call where we count the numbers of those that came down and professed Christ, or those that received the holy ghost, or even those that got baptized. It is not for me to know at what point ones faith is recognized by God, I am not the judge.
I rest in Christ by my faith, and am complete in Christ by faith, as Paul states in Colossians 2.

Numerical growth is not a sign of revival, yet we count numbers by those that have jumped through the hoops of our particular plan of salvation, and that should not be so.

[Godsdrummer]

Originally Posted by votivesoul

The key to understanding baptism and what it's for is found in the Greek word aphesis. Some translate it as remission, some as forgiveness. While remission is closer to the real meaning, forgiveness, unfortunately, paints a very bad picture.

Asking for forgiveness and being forgiven, even by God, doesn't require anything more than the asking and receiving. Anyone can say to God, "I'm sorry, God, will you forgive me?" and receive His forgiveness without any form of immersion, whatsoever, as the prerogative to forgive or not is solely in the sovereignty of God.

When Peter says "for the remission of sins", or for the aphesis of sins, it really means a sending off or away. This is not about an emotional plea for God to forgive, so much as it is a legal plea whereby the immersed, by entering into Christ's death, has the body of their sins destroyed.

Just as Christ was destroyed at the cross, and just as we are immersed into His death, and just as He became sin for us (on the cross), and so, nailed them to the tree, when we experience the same death upon His cross, our immersion destroys the body of our sins (i.e. the very sins Christ became when He was destroyed on the cross).

So the question is, Can anyone honestly say they have been rescued from the body of their sins, if the body of their sins has not been destroyed? Without such a destroying, a person simply cannot enter into eternal life. This destroying occurs in immersion providing the person being immersed has fully confessed and repented of their sins.

They have stood apart from the body of their sins, but the body of their sins isn't destroyed until immersion, and when that occurs, the entire destroyed body of their sins is aphesis, i.e. sent away (permanently).

We can refer to the meaning of the words in Greek all we want, I do so myself, But unless we understand the Jewish mind and meaning of baptism to the Jew, we are applying a different set of rules than I believe was meant.

Just as the sacrificial lamb was slain and the blood sprinkled on the mercy seat for the sins of the whole nation under the law, righteous and unrighteous. So was the blood of Christ sprinkled on the Mercy seat of heaven for the sin of the world. That is why Peter liken baptism to our response of a clear conscience, not in order to wash our sins a way. 1 Peter 2.

[Godsdrummer]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Amen. Noah again is a good example. The world of sin was DESTROYED by the water, and thereby the water delivered Noah from that world since Noah ENTERED the ark. The Red Sea destroyed the armies of Egypt. Israel was BAPTIZED Unto Moses int en Red Sea. Again, this is beyond being righteous. Entrance into the blood stained doorway saw the destruction of the firstborn of Egypt all around. In each case of ENTRANCE, as baptism PUTS US INTO CHRIST'S death, destruction of wicked is involved.

And yet when the flood receded, sin was still in the world. So I guess the world of sin was not destroyed. So what exactly did the water deliver Noah from again?

In each case of ENTRANCE, as baptism PUTS US INTO CHRIST'S death, destruction of wicked is involved.

So how many entrances are there? The entrance of faith, the entrance of baptism and the entrance of infilling of the holy spirit. And of course if you are of the conservative mind set then you have the entrance of standards of holiness.

So what I am seeing here is that the children of Abraham were not the children of Abraham while slaves in Egypt, because they had as yet not offered the Passover lamb to save their first born. Then of course they were not saved yet until the Red Sea crossing. And we could go on and on.

Today we do the same thing, your not save because you believe in the son of God and his kingdom, you must next be baptized, but then your still not saved unless you receive his spirit with evidence. Where does it end?