Is it true that....

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

I believe I answered you in my above post, but still don't think you answered me. What if a woman doesn't see wearing a veil as important? Do you allow Jesus to take care of it?

Just butting in here for a moment...

As I am sure you know, I believe that Christian women ought to wear a headcovering. And I am not afraid to teach it to people who do not (in fact I did a couple weeks ago). But all I do is lay out the scripture and encourage folks to follow the Word. Whether they do or not is their business. I am not an enforcer. And in regards to headcovering and 1 Cor 11, I don't see anything in that passage where Paul threatens hell or promises heaven to anyone involved in the discussion. We ought to teach everything in the Word, but we ought to teach it with the same emphasis the Word gives it, in my opinion.

[votivesoul]

I have more facial hair than I have hair on my head. I haven't worn a suit and tie in a long time. I likely won't wear either for any foreseeable future. I go to church meetings the same as if I was going to the store.

The issue is, can people like Michael and I (and others, I presume) be accepted as we come, without any pretense, and be treated the same way, received the same way, and allowed to offer our gifts and talents to the people of God the same way, as those who are attired in suits and ties?

If the answer is yes, all complaints cease. If the answer is no, then problems arise, in which it is manifestly declared that only those in special clerical robes are allowed to serve Christ in His Kingdom, while those who don't fit the bill are marginalized into the non-existent category of lesser minister for simply not dressing up.

God never used me more when I was clean shaven and suited up, and He hasn't stopped using, or began using me less, the day I stopped shaving and tucked all my ties and suits away.

This idea that these are the things that qualify a man for service in the Kingdom of God, or in the Body of Christ, is so beyond the pale of Christ-likeness, that it can only make one wonder what else isn't Christ-like about those who would hold such an artificial, man-made, Pharisaical standard against the brethren.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Just butting in here for a moment...

As I am sure you know, I believe that Christian women ought to wear a headcovering. And I am not afraid to teach it to people who do not (in fact I did a couple weeks ago). But all I do is lay out the scripture and encourage folks to follow the Word. Whether they do or not is their business. I am not an enforcer. And in regards to headcovering and 1 Cor 11, I don't see anything in that passage where Paul threatens hell or promises heaven to anyone involved in the discussion. We ought to teach everything in the Word, but we ought to teach it with the same emphasis the Word gives it, in my opinion.

Cool, I don't teach a head covering, but a sister who wears one will not be body slammed if she doesn't get a "revelation" in some prescribed amount of time. As far as any threats in 1st Corinthians 11 we have the apostle calling out women saying that they are bald if they are not covered. During the time of the apostle female baldness wasn't a good look. Again, I teach what I see in the word, and I don't see a head wrap. Your opinion is well noted by me, and you know I love your opinions.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by votivesoul

I have more facial hair than I have hair on my head. I haven't worn a suit and tie in a long time. I likely won't wear either for any foreseeable future. I go to church meetings the same as if I was going to the store.

The issue is, can people like Michael and I (and others, I presume) be accepted as we come, without any pretense, and be treated the same way, received the same way, and allowed to offer our gifts and talents to the people of God the same way, as those who are attired in suits and ties?

If the answer is yes, all complaints cease. If the answer is no, then problems arise, in which it is manifestly declared that only those in special clerical robes are allowed to serve Christ in His Kingdom, while those who don't fit the bill are marginalized into the non-existent category of lesser minister for simply not dressing up.

God never used me more when I was clean shaven and suited up, and He hasn't stopped using, or began using me less, the day I stopped shaving and tucked all my ties and suits away.

This idea that these are the things that qualify a man for service in the Kingdom of God, or in the Body of Christ, is so beyond the pale of Christ-likeness, that it can only make one wonder what else isn't Christ-like about those who would hold such an artificial, man-made, Pharisaical standard against the brethren.

I look at it this way, you want to go to church with sweats, a towel around your neck, carrying a plastic water bottle. Then have at it. I wear a suit, I wear a tie, I cut my hair, I brush my teeth, I shave, I use deodorant, I have clean finger nails. Never had a complaint from anyone, but when I had a beard down to my belt, pony tail that was longer than the beard, my father use to ask me If I was in competition with Jesus Christ. My dad was a Sicilian, with a keen sense of sarcasm.

Yet, like I posted, I have never ever been able to come up with book, chapter, and verse for having a beard, or not having a beard. I have heard it preached from both angles. My old pastor was no beard policy, but never heard him say as much as boo devil boo over the pulpit against a man sporting the Brother Steve Winter look.

As far as who isn't Christ like, you and I know very well, that whether or not they shave or wear a three piece suit, those items are the least of their problems.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

Cool, I don't teach a head covering, but a sister who wears one will not be body slammed if she doesn't get a "revelation" in some prescribed amount of time. As far as any threats in 1st Corinthians 11 we have the apostle calling out women saying that they are bald if they are not covered. During the time of the apostle female baldness wasn't a good look. Again, I teach what I see in the word, and I don't see a head wrap. Your opinion is well noted by me, and you know I love your opinions.

I'll just have to straighten you out over a pit cooked ribeye, baked potatoe, and hot and fresh, homemade, buttered bread.

[Esaias]

I'm not a suit and tie guy (never saw the need for men to wear cloth necklaces or fancy wrist bangles, even if they have a time-piece attached).

However, there is something to be said for not dressing like a slob. It is true Christ and the apostles did not wear 'special robes'. In fact, Christ rebuked the Pharisees and scribes and lawyers for loving to wear 'long robes', because they did it ultimately for the approval of men ('look at me! I'm shnazzy!'). Nevertheless, I seriously doubt when they gathered for prayer, teaching, studying, etc that they flopped down in the living room in their undies. Society has for some reason largely given approval to sloppy appearances. Whatever happened to just dressing nice when you get together with friends and family?

Some people dress nicer on Thanksgiving to meet relatives they never see and don't like anyway than they do to meet their brethren in the presence of God. I can remember growing up as a heathen and it was expected that you would dress nice if you left the house and went into public, period. By the time I got to my teen years, I was 'making my statement about social mores' with my ripped jeans, trashy t-shirts, dirty sneakers and unkempt hair. Thankfully, many of the younger generation haven't taken so completely to the 'let's dress up like People of Wal-Mart' and actually try to look halfway decent when they leave the house for social interactions. So I imagine in the next 30-40 years 'casual dress' will once again slip out of vogue in general.

Of course, there are still gobs of young people who think 'dress nice' means throwing on a hoodie over the pj's when going out to dinner, but hey...

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Esaias

I'll just have to straighten you out over a pit cooked ribeye, baked potatoe, and hot and fresh, homemade, buttered bread.

Amen, sounds great, how about purple yams, smothered in butter, with strips of bacon to go along with the ribeye, and fresh bread?

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Esaias

I'm not a suit and tie guy (never saw the need for men to wear cloth necklaces or fancy wrist bangles, even if they have a time-piece attached).

However, there is something to be said for not dressing like a slob. It is true Christ and the apostles did not wear 'special robes'. In fact, Christ rebuked the Pharisees and scribes and lawyers for loving to wear 'long robes', because they did it ultimately for the approval of men ('look at me! I'm shnazzy!'). Nevertheless, I seriously doubt when they gathered for prayer, teaching, studying, etc that they flopped down in the living room in their undies. Society has for some reason largely given approval to sloppy appearances. Whatever happened to just dressing nice when you get together with friends and family?

Some people dress nicer on Thanksgiving to meet relatives they never see and don't like anyway than they do to meet their brethren in the presence of God. I can remember growing up as a heathen and it was expected that you would dress nice if you left the house and went into public, period. By the time I got to my teen years, I was 'making my statement about social mores' with my ripped jeans, trashy t-shirts, dirty sneakers and unkempt hair. Thankfully, many of the younger generation haven't taken so completely to the 'let's dress up like People of Wal-Mart' and actually try to look halfway decent when they leave the house for social interactions. So I imagine in the next 30-40 years 'casual dress' will once again slip out of vogue in general.

Of course, there are still gobs of young people who think 'dress nice' means throwing on a hoodie over the pj's when going out to dinner, but hey...

I remember growing up when I wouldn't pull my pant legs out of the top of my engineer boot, because I was in a hurry. My mother would say "boy! are you going to dig ditches today? I want you to keep in your head, that you represent us, especially ME!!!!!!" As I got older felt the need to blend in with my cohorts, so I started to look grungier, motorcycle engineer boots were no longer polished, hair was no longer cut, gloves lost their fingers, and denim jacket lost its sleeves. I was raised that boots, shoes, needed to be maintained, shirts needed to be ironed, pants needed to be ironed, and underwear needed to be changed on the DAY LEEE. My mother would ask me if I had clean underwear when I was growing up, when I got into a bad motorcycle accident were I broke my leg in half, the first thing she said was.."did you have clean underwear on?" My mother and father were heavy on the respect of parents, relatives, sisters, brothers, old people, and constantly brought up the tin drum beat of REPRESENT!

We have a high school up the block and it has no dress code, uniform, any limit to what these young people can wear or...not wear.

They all march up the road past my house and I'm amazed that dressing like Wal Mart is pretty much how they roll.

When I was growing up you couldn't attend class with your leather jacket, I had to put my in my locker. But our culture has gone from the casual look, to the homeless look.

I remember sitting through a preaching where the individual in the pulpit didn't like suits, neck ties, and Oxfords. He preached that Jesus and the apostles never washed, but only their feet, Jesus was covered in sawdust, had the filthiest finger nails, since they didn't have toothbrushes but only sticks to chew on to clean their teeth. Jesus' teeth were knarly.

I had a grin from ear to ear, because I was ready to burst out in laughter, but to RESPECT the people who didn't know any better, I didn't bust a gut.

I see that we may end up as a culture where you may not be able to tell the homeless from the ones who have homes.

[votivesoul]

How is there no middle ground?

A false dichotomy is being presented where one can wear a suit and tie and be clean shaven, to a church meeting, or one can walk in in their "undies" and look like a homeless vagabond.

A not doing of the former is not an automatic doing of the latter.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by votivesoul

How is there no middle ground?

A false dichotomy is being presented where one can wear a suit and tie and be clean shaven, to a church meeting, or one can walk in in their "undies" and look like a homeless vagabond.

A not doing of the former is not an automatic doing of the latter.

It really isn't that at all, it is just looking your best, not even just in a suit.
My whole thing is this, we are (as a culture) slouching towards Bum Life.
I believe this, the clothes are just the tip of the iceberg, how about brushing your teeth, combing your hair (in your case, your beard) polishing your shoes, or just taking care of your foot wear. Exercise, eating properly, not having a heart attack behind the pulpit, or passing out with a heart attack while you are choosing a meal at MCDONALDS????

Excellence, shouldn't be something that is a negative, in body, mind and spirit. It should be encouraged. I have a brother who when he saw Brother Billy Cole, and Mark Morgan he told me "HOW CAN THAT BE GOD?"

That my dear VS, is a tougher row to hoe then a shirt and a tie.

You are really defeating the purpose of dressing up nicely when you are pouring out of the clothes you wear.

Wearing full Ermenegildo Zegna, Armani, or Louis Vuitton isn't a good look when you bend over at the altar and everyone can see plumber's crack.

Be ye perfect, means complete as in full age. Mature, not children, but adults.

In the Roman Empire, as the first century Middle East you were what you wore. People were able to be identified by their clothing.

As for me and my house we aren't looking to become part of the Wal Mart Nation.