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  #211  
Old 04-17-2016, 06:29 PM
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Re: Calling on the Name of Jesus (at baptism)

Just a few more thoughts:

God preserved the orthography of the Tetragrammaton in His Word in Hebrew, and yet, no one knows how to pronounce it. Why did God allow the pronunciation of His eternal name to be lost, i.e. NOT PRESERVED?

I ask this to make this point:

Just because we see IESOUS in the New Testament writings, doesn't mean we should assume that this is what God intended to preserve forever as it pertains to the name of His Son. Rather, it merely reflects the fact that the authors of the New Testaments, primarily Paul, but others as well, were Greek speaking and so, received inspiration in the language with which they were most familiar.

In the LXX, it was common for the translators to simply transliterate Hebrew names using Greek characters. So, for example, Balaam, or בִּלְעָם becomes Βαλαάμ, and etc. Therefore, the name of Joshua from the OT, or יְהוֹשֻׁעַ becomes in Greek Ἰησοῦς.

Note that the iota is the character used in Greek to reflect the yod in Hebrew.

Why does this matter? Because by the time we get to the creation of the letter "J" in English, we need to realize that "J" didn't used to have the sound we currently tend to give it.

"J", phonetically, is the voiced palatal approximant. See here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palatal_approximant

Note in the link how it is proven that the English "J" used to be the phonetical equivalent of iota in Greek, but only came to sound the way it does due to something phoneticists call "yod-dropping".

See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phonol...s#Yod-dropping

One example given is the transliterated word "Hallelujah", were the "j" has a distinctly "y" sound. Interestingly, this "y" sound in the last syllable of hallelujah preserves the pronunciation of the first syllable and truncated form in and of the Tetragrammaton, i.e. Yah, thus indicating the correct sound of the first syllable of the name Joshua in Hebrew.

Which brings me to another, main point:

It is undoubtedly true that Alexander Magnus brought Hellenization to Palestine, and that Greek became a featured language. Indeed, by the time of Rome, it became the lingua franca of the empire.

When this happens, languages will of course blend and certain words will be borrowed from one another. This is called calques. English is in fact quite the admixture of borrowed words and phrases.

See: http://www-tc.pbs.org/moyers/journal.../mcwhorter.pdf

This explains why so many Jews of the era in which Christ lived had Greek names. It's no big secret or conspiracy to prove anything other than the region was conquered by Greek speaking people and many of the Jews acculturated into Hellenism. It doesn't mean that every Jew therefore was Hellenized (Consider Y'hudhah HaMakabi and his rebellion against the Hellenist Antiochus IV Epiphanes).

What's more, take a look at the following:

Alphabet in English is alpha, beta in Greek (i.e. the first two letters in Greek).

But alpha, beta is really nothing more than aleph, bet in Hebrew, or the first two letters of Hebrew.

See the overlap? Greek borrowed from Hebrew and Hebrew borrowed from Greek.

This is why there is no real conflict between Yeshua and Iesous. Thus, the fact we see a Greek New Testament with a Greek name for our Savior, is NO BIG DEAL.

It certainly isn't some way to rack up points against the prefer-to-use-Yeshua crowd.
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  #212  
Old 04-17-2016, 07:06 PM
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Esaias Esaias is offline
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Re: Calling on the Name of Jesus (at baptism)

Quote:
Originally Posted by FlamingZword View Post
Is Hadassah in the OT? Yes she is. that was her birth name.

Is Yeshua in the NT? Yes he is. that is his birth name.

Yah Shua = Yah is Salvation

Yah = Contraction of Yahweh = Name of the Father

Shua = Salvation

"I have come in my father's name"

YahShua = Yeshua (Derivative)
Show me the NT text that has "Yeshua" in it.

BTW, "YAHshua" appears NOWHERE in the OT. You did know that, right?
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  #213  
Old 04-17-2016, 07:09 PM
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Re: Calling on the Name of Jesus (at baptism)

It would be a translation issue IF YESHUA APPEARED IN THE NT TEXT, which it doesn't.
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  #214  
Old 04-17-2016, 07:11 PM
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Re: Calling on the Name of Jesus (at baptism)

Quote:
Originally Posted by FlamingZword View Post
THERE IS NOT ONE SCRIPTURE WHERE GENTILES WERE TAUGHT TO KEEP THE SABBATH INSTEAD OF SUNDAY.

IN FACT THERE IS NOT ONE SCRIPTURE WHATSOEVER CALLING FOR KEEPING "THE SABBATH".

Not one.
You've lost your mind.

IN FACT THERE IS NOT ONE SCRIPTURE WHATSOEVER CALLING FOR KEEPING "THE SABBATH".

Remember the Sabbath DAY to keep it holy...

THERE IS NOT ONE SCRIPTURE WHERE GENTILES WERE TAUGHT TO KEEP THE SABBATH INSTEAD OF SUNDAY.

That the RIGHTEOUSNESS OF THE LAW might be FULFILLED IN US who walk... after the Spirit.
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  #215  
Old 04-17-2016, 07:15 PM
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Esaias Esaias is offline
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Re: Calling on the Name of Jesus (at baptism)

Quote:
Originally Posted by votivesoul View Post
Just a few more thoughts:

God preserved the orthography of the Tetragrammaton in His Word in Hebrew, and yet, no one knows how to pronounce it. Why did God allow the pronunciation of His eternal name to be lost, i.e. NOT PRESERVED?

I ask this to make this point:

Just because we see IESOUS in the New Testament writings, doesn't mean we should assume that this is what God intended to preserve forever as it pertains to the name of His Son. Rather, it merely reflects the fact that the authors of the New Testaments, primarily Paul, but others as well, were Greek speaking and so, received inspiration in the language with which they were most familiar.

In the LXX, it was common for the translators to simply transliterate Hebrew names using Greek characters. So, for example, Balaam, or בִּלְעָם becomes Βαλαάμ, and etc. Therefore, the name of Joshua from the OT, or יְהוֹשֻׁעַ becomes in Greek Ἰησοῦς.

Note that the iota is the character used in Greek to reflect the yod in Hebrew.

Why does this matter? Because by the time we get to the creation of the letter "J" in English, we need to realize that "J" didn't used to have the sound we currently tend to give it.

"J", phonetically, is the voiced palatal approximant. See here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palatal_approximant

Note in the link how it is proven that the English "J" used to be the phonetical equivalent of iota in Greek, but only came to sound the way it does due to something phoneticists call "yod-dropping".

See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phonol...s#Yod-dropping

One example given is the transliterated word "Hallelujah", were the "j" has a distinctly "y" sound. Interestingly, this "y" sound in the last syllable of hallelujah preserves the pronunciation of the first syllable and truncated form in and of the Tetragrammaton, i.e. Yah, thus indicating the correct sound of the first syllable of the name Joshua in Hebrew.

Which brings me to another, main point:

It is undoubtedly true that Alexander Magnus brought Hellenization to Palestine, and that Greek became a featured language. Indeed, by the time of Rome, it became the lingua franca of the empire.

When this happens, languages will of course blend and certain words will be borrowed from one another. This is called calques. English is in fact quite the admixture of borrowed words and phrases.

See: http://www-tc.pbs.org/moyers/journal.../mcwhorter.pdf

This explains why so many Jews of the era in which Christ lived had Greek names. It's no big secret or conspiracy to prove anything other than the region was conquered by Greek speaking people and many of the Jews acculturated into Hellenism. It doesn't mean that every Jew therefore was Hellenized (Consider Y'hudhah HaMakabi and his rebellion against the Hellenist Antiochus IV Epiphanes).

What's more, take a look at the following:

Alphabet in English is alpha, beta in Greek (i.e. the first two letters in Greek).

But alpha, beta is really nothing more than aleph, bet in Hebrew, or the first two letters of Hebrew.

See the overlap? Greek borrowed from Hebrew and Hebrew borrowed from Greek.

This is why there is no real conflict between Yeshua and Iesous. Thus, the fact we see a Greek New Testament with a Greek name for our Savior, is NO BIG DEAL.

It certainly isn't some way to rack up points against the prefer-to-use-Yeshua crowd.
Excellent points, except your final conclusion, which leaves out the fact God Himself preserved the Savior's name in Greek, thus showing HE HIMSELF places no importance on any supposed Hebrew pronunciation of the name.
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  #216  
Old 04-17-2016, 07:22 PM
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Re: Calling on the Name of Jesus (at baptism)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Esaias View Post
You've lost your mind.

IN FACT THERE IS NOT ONE SCRIPTURE WHATSOEVER CALLING FOR KEEPING "THE SABBATH".

Remember the Sabbath DAY to keep it holy...

THERE IS NOT ONE SCRIPTURE WHERE GENTILES WERE TAUGHT TO KEEP THE SABBATH INSTEAD OF SUNDAY.

That the RIGHTEOUSNESS OF THE LAW might be FULFILLED IN US who walk... after the Spirit.
So where is the New Testament command that says for Gentiles to keep Sabbath? I have asked this of the law keeping believers for many years and one has never been shown.
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  #217  
Old 04-17-2016, 07:28 PM
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Re: Calling on the Name of Jesus (at baptism)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple View Post
So where is the New Testament command that says for Gentiles to keep Sabbath? I have asked this of the law keeping believers for many years and one has never been shown.
Command? Brother, the command stands until rescinded (that's how commands work). But consider the following verses:

Heb 8:8-10
Rom 2:13-15
Rom 2:26-29

See also Isaiah 56:6-8
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  #218  
Old 04-17-2016, 07:30 PM
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Re: Calling on the Name of Jesus (at baptism)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Esaias View Post
Excellent points, except your final conclusion, which leaves out the fact God Himself preserved the Savior's name in Greek, thus showing HE HIMSELF places no importance on any supposed Hebrew pronunciation of the name.
So if God preserved his name in Greek...does that include the added "s"? Or are some things matters of translation?
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  #219  
Old 04-17-2016, 07:30 PM
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Re: Calling on the Name of Jesus (at baptism)

So, back on topic, where is the NT command to use Yeshua? If it does not exist, then how can it be said to be "better" to use Yeshua instead of Jesus? Seems it boils down to a mere personal preference, and nothing more.
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  #220  
Old 04-17-2016, 07:32 PM
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Re: Calling on the Name of Jesus (at baptism)

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Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple View Post
So if God preserved his name in Greek...does that include the added "s"? Or are some things matters of translation?
The final sigma exists as a matter of inflection depending on case, as is common to all Greek nouns.

What it means is God didn't want Greeks using a Hebrew pronunciation.
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