Calling on the Name of Jesus (at baptism)

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Excellent points, except your final conclusion, which leaves out the fact God Himself preserved the Savior's name in Greek, thus showing HE HIMSELF places no importance on any supposed Hebrew pronunciation of the name.

Does he place special importance on using English OVER THE HEBREW? If we can all use our own language (which I believe) and nothing is wrong with it could we not ALSO use the ORIGINAL and be blameless?

And really the only reason I could see for the arguments being presented here must be that the arguers believe the English name is better than the Hebrew!

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by Esaias

It would be a translation issue IF YESHUA APPEARED IN THE NT TEXT, which it doesn't.

You ASSUME the Greek text was the first one written by any Apostle which can never be proven. If one were using the Peshitta text he would say "Yeshua" appears and "Iesous" never appears.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by votivesoul

Just a few more thoughts:

God preserved the orthography of the Tetragrammaton in His Word in Hebrew, and yet, no one knows how to pronounce it. Why did God allow the pronunciation of His eternal name to be lost, i.e. NOT PRESERVED?

I ask this to make this point:

Just because we see IESOUS in the New Testament writings, doesn't mean we should assume that this is what God intended to preserve forever as it pertains to the name of His Son. Rather, it merely reflects the fact that the authors of the New Testaments, primarily Paul, but others as well, were Greek speaking and so, received inspiration in the language with which they were most familiar.

In the LXX, it was common for the translators to simply transliterate Hebrew names using Greek characters. So, for example, Balaam, or בִּלְעָם becomes Βαλαάμ, and etc. Therefore, the name of Joshua from the OT, or יְהוֹשֻׁעַ becomes in Greek Ἰησοῦς.

Note that the iota is the character used in Greek to reflect the yod in Hebrew.

Why does this matter? Because by the time we get to the creation of the letter "J" in English, we need to realize that "J" didn't used to have the sound we currently tend to give it.

"J", phonetically, is the voiced palatal approximant. See here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palatal_approximant

Note in the link how it is proven that the English "J" used to be the phonetical equivalent of iota in Greek, but only came to sound the way it does due to something phoneticists call "yod-dropping".

See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phonol...s#Yod-dropping

One example given is the transliterated word "Hallelujah", were the "j" has a distinctly "y" sound. Interestingly, this "y" sound in the last syllable of hallelujah preserves the pronunciation of the first syllable and truncated form in and of the Tetragrammaton, i.e. Yah, thus indicating the correct sound of the first syllable of the name Joshua in Hebrew.

Which brings me to another, main point:

It is undoubtedly true that Alexander Magnus brought Hellenization to Palestine, and that Greek became a featured language. Indeed, by the time of Rome, it became the lingua franca of the empire.

When this happens, languages will of course blend and certain words will be borrowed from one another. This is called calques. English is in fact quite the admixture of borrowed words and phrases.

See: http://www-tc.pbs.org/moyers/journal.../mcwhorter.pdf

This explains why so many Jews of the era in which Christ lived had Greek names. It's no big secret or conspiracy to prove anything other than the region was conquered by Greek speaking people and many of the Jews acculturated into Hellenism. It doesn't mean that every Jew therefore was Hellenized (Consider Y'hudhah HaMakabi and his rebellion against the Hellenist Antiochus IV Epiphanes).

What's more, take a look at the following:

Alphabet in English is alpha, beta in Greek (i.e. the first two letters in Greek).

But alpha, beta is really nothing more than aleph, bet in Hebrew, or the first two letters of Hebrew.

See the overlap? Greek borrowed from Hebrew and Hebrew borrowed from Greek.

This is why there is no real conflict between Yeshua and Iesous. Thus, the fact we see a Greek New Testament with a Greek name for our Savior, is NO BIG DEAL.

It certainly isn't some way to rack up points against the prefer-to-use-Yeshua crowd.

The issue of conspiracy isn't from the Greek crowd, but mainly from the Yahwist, Sacred Name, Hebrew Roots crowd. The arguments always remain the same as we chase "Js' and Ss" up and down a forum thread. My daughter almost spit her root beer across my key board when she saw that mean created the S on the name of Jesus? Language wasn't all created in one day my boys. It didn't spring out of the clear blue at Babel and preserved pristine until the 21st century. Language especially the written evolved over time. Language is about sounds, not about spelling any KJVist can tell you that.

If you take some time to really read what a Hebraist posts, you see words like bad transliteration, the Hebrew is really His name, and therefore the one if we are seeking TRUTH should use? Seriously? My question remains the same, why didn't they use Yeshua, or Yehoshua? They knew how to present ţlîthâ qûm, ταλιθα κουμ Mark 5:41, 'ethpthaħ', ἐφφαθά Mark 7:34, Mark 14:36 'abbā Αββα, Matthew 5:22 Raka, or Eli Eli lema sabachthani of Matthew 27:46, and Mark 15:34, but we are to believe that Yehoshua. Yeshua, or Yeshu (sacred name musical chairs) will be a reward for a search for truth?

So, why does Nicodemus (Judean religious leadership) have an Ancient Greek name? Why does Yohana Marcus "John Mark" Acts 12:12 have a Aramaic and Latin name?

I would like to remind everyone that this discussion isn't just about a name, but it is much more. If they indeed Hellenized these New Testament documents so badly, Jesus being called a bad transliteration???

Then what else did they do incorrectly?

Just how much Hellenization did they inject into these manuscripts?

I believe personally that we have the exact words of Christ. The exact words of the Apostles, and the exact words of Paul. What I see is that the Hebrewist movement tend to start with their so called search for truth then end up deleting portions of the New Testament which they believe aren't Hebrew enough.

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Command? Brother, the command stands until rescinded (that's how commands work). But consider the following verses:

Heb 8:8-10
Rom 2:13-15
Rom 2:26-29

See also Isaiah 56:6-8

The word "sabbath" appears in none of the 3 New Testament verses. Neither does it appear in the Isaiah verses. But even if they did then one would need to go back to Acts 15 and see what applies to who.

And THAT is why we dont keep Sabbath. Not one command exists that the Gentiles of the Church should.

Now if one PREFERS to keep it because he wants to for whatever reason thats fine as long as he does not tell other Gentile believers they MUST keep it!

And its the same bottom line for me as with the name issue.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

So if God preserved his name in Greek...does that include the added "s"? Or are some things matters of translation?

Are you serious?

Let's put it this way, it is more like linguistic transcription. The I, and the 18th century "J" Yanni, Gianni, Johnny. made a Yah sound. Bringing up the s, or j doesn't help people speak anymore Hebrew then cause them to speak Greek

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

So if God preserved his name in Greek...does that include the added "s"? Or are some things matters of translation?

I just thought I should ask you this, what about the Greek New Testament?

Did God preserve it or does it need a revision?

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by Esaias

The final sigma exists as a matter of inflection depending on case, as is common to all Greek nouns.

What it means is God didn't want Greeks using a Hebrew pronunciation.

So the SACRED NAME OF GOD is dependent on Greek inflection and case!

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

So the SACRED NAME OF GOD is dependent on Greek inflection and case!

It is language?

Are you serious?

You do know that there were other people in the 1st Century named Yehoshua, Iesous?

Wow.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

Does he place special importance on using English OVER THE HEBREW? If we can all use our own language (which I believe) and nothing is wrong with it could we not ALSO use the ORIGINAL and be blameless?

And really the only reason I could see for the arguments being presented here must be that the arguers believe the English name is better than the Hebrew!

The claim was made that Yeshua is BETTER than Jesus, that Jesus is a BAD TRANSLATION/TRANSLITERATION, that God is REVEALING A NEW THING in this regard.

If you speak English but prefer Jesucristo, fine (doesn't make sense to me, but everybody has their eccentricities). But the moment a person claims a certain thing is BETTER they need Scriptural support.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Esaias

So, back on topic, where is the NT command to use Yeshua? If it does not exist, then how can it be said to be "better" to use Yeshua instead of Jesus? Seems it boils down to a mere personal preference, and nothing more.

My question remains where are the Hebrew manuscripts, Aramaic manuscripts, why wasn't Yeshua, or Yehoshua placed in the New Testament like Eli Eli lema sabachthani? Why does Nicodemus have an Ancient Greek name? Yohana Marcus where did this guy come from?

Aquila, Aquila, Priscilla her name is Prisca!!!

A Judean name Apollos after a the Greek Sun god!!!!

Seriously!!!