A Picture of Grace from God's Point of View

[shazeep]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

you are welcome to post how it is you determine if someone is saved or not, should you feel so inclined. Is it really going to differ much from my explanation? We accept peoples' "story" about how they came to Christ as being true. When people say "no, i am not saved, i don't believe in God or Christ," we equally accept these statements as reflective of the state of this person's "salvation," despite the many passages of Scripture that indicate otherwise. We teach that this is how God will judge people, by listening to their stories, whether we mean to or not. It is a lie.

[shazeep]

Originally Posted by deacon blues

Much less trust in Jesus for forgiveness of sins. Muslims are legalists.

maybe some, but "All" Muslims? "All" OPs are judgemental, too, right? If you are judging dogma, that is one thing; but dogma does not describe a person's heart, as OP teaches. You have a definition of "trusting Jesus" that may not be the same as some other believer's--or for that matter even Scripture's--but this does not make anyone "wrong" in their beliefs, imo.

How will you know them?

You will know them by their polished testimony, and the conviction with which they attest to their salvation? i mean, if agreeing with me is your only chance for salvation, then we are both deceived.

[shazeep]

Originally Posted by deacon blues

All religions are works-based, except The Way.

please. You require works at the altar to be saved, in OP, just like any other religion. One has to do such-and-such, get baptized in a certain way, everyone concerned holding their mouth right, 'speak in tongues' by a certain date, and above all, without fail, adopt the lingo. Don't kid yourself.

They are customs that we adopt, and i don't mean to imply that there's anything wrong with them, but they become requirements for others somehow, in the process, and a wall is erected. Now alla sudden you can't be saved because you are a Muslim, talking Muhammad; but Christ is a Spirit, that is denied when i say "you can't be saved," because humility if nothing else.

You want to be saved? Start treating everyone else as if they were saved, and suspecting that you yourself may not be. Apply all of those uncomfortable verses to yourself (speaking generally now). Of course that is impossible, as you are a good person, so you will have to ask God how that verse might apply to you, and be open to accepting it when God shows you how, which He will quickly do, and you will likely quickly deny--or that part of you that is not the observer will deny, anyway; it's up to you to buy it or not.

[shazeep]

Originally Posted by houston

Easier to understand than some posts...

prolly i am making assumptions not universally held, leading me to post in a less than completely understandable way. But all i have is an opinion anyway. How do you determine if someone is saved, Houston?

[shazeep]

Originally Posted by votivesoul

To be saved, one must believe that God raised Jesus from the dead (Romans 10:9).

yes, yes, i am aware of the fine print in the legal document, ty, as you are surely aware of Scripture that seems to contradict this. The entire quote allows that that is just what they were espousing at the time; This is the message of faith that we proclaim: these are all great; by all means apply them. To yourself.

For that matter please see that it is no skin off my nose if you want to go around condemning all and sundry based upon some deficient understanding of any number of Scriptures in isolation; after all, isn't that what most Christians do? I mean, that passage might convince you that all one need do is confess that Christ rose from the dead, and proclaim this to others, and you will be saved. Is this true? Well, the passage says that it is. Hitler believed it, along with your current fascist leaders. They all go to church, and talk about when they got saved, and baptized, etc.

So, many will cry 'Lord, Lord' should also be considered. You know for a fact that many do not have a change of heart after this experience.

[houston]

Originally Posted by shazeep

prolly i am making assumptions not universally held, leading me to post in a less than completely understandable way. But all i have is an opinion anyway. How do you determine if someone is saved, Houston?

When God grants repentance. II Tim. 2:25

[votivesoul]

Originally Posted by shazeep

yes, but you are requiring your definitions there, naturally, as they are the ones provided to you, and they seem correct.

I'm merely using the generally accepted definition of the term "legalistic" (a term you threw out there, by the way) within a Christian religious context. Since we are talking Christian context, what other definition ought we to use?

"Wonderful Counselor" is disallowed as an understanding of Christ in this model;

I fail to see how? Elucidate?

and, it is assumed that all men will be judged the same way, when there is a sense in which this is not true.

How or in what way do you know this to be not true, (in a sense)?

God does not consult with OPs, nor anyone else, in judging a man or a matter.

He seemed to consult with Abraham regarding Sodom and Gomorrah, and was willing to take counsel from him regarding what He should or shouldn't do to those cities.

We can find Scripture to condemn Job, or even Solomon, so using the Bible in this way is not only demonstrably arbitrary, but a sign.

Is Scripture then un-usable? What purpose does it serve?

Muslims are required to emulate Christ, not just talk about Him as in our religion.

In what way can a Muslim emulate the Son of God when he or she denies Him? How does that work? Do as I do, but not as I say?

The only Muslims going around talking about how others are lost are the radical, fake ones.

And you know this how? How do you judge the merits or authenticity of who is and who is not a legitimate Muslim? The Qu'ran? What is the basis upon which one can determine who is the real deal versus who is not, in Islam?

It would be a strange Christian indeed that refrained from legalistic verbal declarations about Christ, and requiring them as proof of "salvation," which is in fact what we are taught to do, whether that is what you might want to admit or not;

Is there no basic confession of Christian faith necessary? It's all in how one acts and behaves, inward convictions of what is and is not true, be damned?

a "Christian" conversation might easily go
"Are they saved?"
"Yes, they accepted Jesus and spoke in tongues on such-and-such a date."
"Oh, okay then."

No man can call Jesus "Lord" except through the Holy Spirit, and no one is going to experience Holy Spirit glossalalia without first having received the Holy Spirit. So, speaking in tongues is one way to certify that a person has received Jesus as Lord at some point in life. God only gives the Holy Spirit to them who obey Him (Acts 5:32). Or was Simon Peter wrong, or is the transmission of the Acts of the Apostles in error?

And i can tell you with confidence that if you are in this church, you should run, as fast as you can. Does this mean that they are all "lost?" Of course not; just like anyone, any Muslim, they may choose a different understanding from that of the herd they are in; they will be the quiet ones.

The tone here suggests a begrudgement. Why so callously dismiss people like this?

So hold to your convictions--about other people, lol--for as long as you like. "Prove" them with some convenient Scripture, should you be so inclined, ignoring other Scripture that gives a more complete understanding.

This is rather judgmental, shazeep. You are making some assumptions for which you offer no proof. Further, what you are intimating is nothing less than a Bible-less Christianity, in which no one anywhere, ever, has to submit himself or herself to any form of inspection according to the Holy Scriptures.

There is then, no way for anyone to protect themselves from wolves in sheep's clothing. We must merely accept all upon no actual basis, since we might somehow be "ignoring other Scripture that [would give] a more complete understanding".

Lots of people do. But people also change--and if they are truly changing their minds, they cannot help it; you will not be unaffected from now on whenever you hear someone declare their "bona-fides," or repeat someone else's, as a reply to "are you saved." You might stuff it, true, but it will be there.

Anyone who tells you that you are saved or that they are saved is lying to you, and contravening Scripture. He who holds out to the end is saved.

Anyone who has had a bona-fide, saving encounter with the risen Lord, Jesus of Nazareth, will be changed, and that change will cause him or her to swear allegiance to Him, by default. Or else Jesus isn't who He claimed to be and He doesn't have the power to save anyone.

[votivesoul]

Originally Posted by shazeep

yes, yes, i am aware of the fine print in the legal document, ty, as you are surely aware of Scripture that seems to contradict this. The entire quote allows that that is just what they were espousing at the time; This is the message of faith that we proclaim: these are all great; by all means apply them. To yourself.

For that matter please see that it is no skin off my nose if you want to go around condemning all and sundry based upon some deficient understanding of any number of Scriptures in isolation; after all, isn't that what most Christians do? I mean, that passage might convince you that all one need do is confess that Christ rose from the dead, and proclaim this to others, and you will be saved. Is this true? Well, the passage says that it is. Hitler believed it, along with your current fascist leaders. They all go to church, and talk about when they got saved, and baptized, etc.

So, many will cry 'Lord, Lord' should also be considered. You know for a fact that many do not have a change of heart after this experience.

Why are you so dismissive of the Epistle to the Romans? Or all of Holy Scripture, it would appear?

What did the Bible ever do to you?

Or perhaps said another way, what did someone do to you, while using the Bible as justification for doing it?

Or maybe, what have you done to yourself, using the Bible to do it?

I fear you've taken the "judge not, condemn not" rule in the Gospels as an indication that you are not to render any discernment whatsoever about anyone.

[votivesoul]

shazeep,

Jesus routinely used the Holy Scriptures of the Old Covenant to judge and condemn the scribes and Pharisees.

We are to emulate Christ, are we not?

Shall we not use the Holy Scriptures in a similar fashion at such time as the confession of one does not match up with the profession?

How does one reprove, rebuke, and exhort with all long-suffering and doctrine if one doesn't use the Holy Scriptures to do it?

Is not all of Scripture God-breathed, and therefore beneficial for those very things?

It appears you would have us toss the Bible aside as an impossibly hard book to understand, of which we may always find ourselves ignorant, and therefore, unqualified to use as a measuring stick in any capacity.

How do you, personally, in your own life, go about emulating Christ without the written texts that first told you Who and What He was and is? Indeed, those very written texts tell you how to emulate Him!

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by votivesoul

shazeep,

Jesus routinely used the Holy Scriptures of the Old Covenant to judge and condemn the scribes and Pharisees.

We are to emulate Christ, are we not?

Shall we not use the Holy Scriptures in a similar fashion at such time as the confession of one does not match up with the profession?

How does one reprove, rebuke, and exhort with all long-suffering and doctrine if one doesn't use the Holy Scriptures to do it?

Is not all of Scripture God-breathed, and therefore beneficial for those very things?

It appears you would have us toss the Bible aside as an impossibly hard book to understand, of which we may always find ourselves ignorant, and therefore, unqualified to use as a measuring stick in any capacity.

How do you, personally, in your own life, go about emulating Christ without the written texts that first told you Who and What He was and is? Indeed, those very written texts tell you how to emulate Him!